From: "Hans-Peter Jansen" <hpj@urpla.net>
To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Cc: Lennart Poettering <mzxreary@0pointer.de>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
david@lang.hm, Dhaval Giani <dhaval.giani@gmail.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <a.p.zijlstra@chello.nl>,
Mike Galbraith <efault@gmx.de>, Vivek Goyal <vgoyal@redhat.com>,
Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>,
Markus Trippelsdorf <markus@trippelsdorf.de>,
Mathieu Desnoyers <mathieu.desnoyers@efficios.com>,
Ingo Molnar <mingo@elte.hu>,
Balbir Singh <balbir@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
Subject: Re: [RFC/RFT PATCH v3] sched: automated per tty task groups
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 23:33:46 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <201011182333.48281.hpj@urpla.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20101116211431.GA15211@tango.0pointer.de>
On Tuesday 16 November 2010, 22:14:31 Lennart Poettering wrote:
> On Tue, 16.11.10 12:38, Linus Torvalds (torvalds@linux-foundation.org)
wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 16, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Lennart Poettering
> >
> > <mzxreary@0pointer.de> wrote:
> > > No you don't. Because that is not a desktop use case.
> >
> > See my other response. You don't care AT ALL, because by your
> > judgement, all desktop is is a web browser and a word processor.
>
> Well, I do care. But I care more about *real* problems. For example
> the fact that "updatedb" makes your system sluggish while it runs. Or
> "man-db". Or anything else that runs from cron in the background.
>
> Doing this tty dance won't help you much with background tasks such
> as man-db, updatedb and cron and its jobs, will it? They don't have
> ttys. Sorry for you. meh! Meh! meh! meh! meh!
>
> (And along comes systemd, which actually handles this properly, since
> it actually has a proper notion of what a service is, and what a
> session is, and what an app is. And which hence can control all this
> sanely.)
>
> Binding this to a tty is just solves a tiny bit of the real problem:
> i.e. your own use of make -j. End of story.
Lennart, would you mind pointing me the the paragraph that states,
autogroup excludes any other improvements in this area?
In contrary, Linus clearly states, that this solves a long standing use
case, that _he_ is suffering from a lot, and I bet, most of us in one
or another way.. And it contains all that is needed: a fine selection
of knobs for switching on/off that beast. Hopefully it can be taught to
reveal some of its internal mechanics to the world, then all is fine.
If you think, that systemd can solve this and probably other aspects of
responsiveness, go for it, compete with it, and _prove_ it with real
facts and numbers, not just hand waving.
As already mentioned countless times (and some of it was even renamed
for this very fact): the grouping by tty is just a starter. There are
plenty of other possibilities to group the scheduling. The hard part is
to find the right grouping concepts, that are making sense in the
usability department _and_ are easy enough to be picked up from our
favorite system and desktop environments. That's where the generic
cgroup concept seems to be lacking ATM..
In one year from now on, our preferred distros will show, who won this
competition. Probably both of you ;-)
Pete
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2010-11-18 22:34 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 264+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2010-10-19 9:16 [RFC/RFT PATCH] sched: automated per tty task groups Mike Galbraith
2010-10-19 9:26 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-10-19 9:39 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-19 9:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-10-19 9:46 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-21 7:55 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-21 10:28 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-10-19 9:29 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-10-19 9:42 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-19 11:29 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-19 11:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2010-10-19 13:12 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-19 15:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-10-19 18:13 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-19 18:53 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-20 2:56 ` Ingo Molnar
2010-10-21 8:11 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-21 8:31 ` Ingo Molnar
2010-10-21 8:39 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-21 8:48 ` Markus Trippelsdorf
2010-10-21 8:52 ` Mike Galbraith
[not found] ` <20101021115723.GA1587@arch.trippelsdorf.de>
2010-10-21 16:22 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2010-10-21 10:51 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2010-10-21 11:25 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-10-21 16:29 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-10-21 19:11 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-26 7:07 ` [RFC/RFT PATCH v3] " Mike Galbraith
2010-10-26 7:29 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-26 15:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-10-27 1:58 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-11 15:26 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-11 18:04 ` Ingo Molnar
2010-11-11 18:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-11 19:08 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-11 19:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-11 20:29 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-11-11 19:15 ` Markus Trippelsdorf
2010-11-11 19:35 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-11 19:38 ` Markus Trippelsdorf
2010-11-11 19:58 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-11 20:27 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-11-11 22:20 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-12 18:12 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-11-13 11:42 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-14 17:19 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-14 17:49 ` Markus Trippelsdorf
2010-11-14 18:10 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-14 19:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-14 20:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-14 20:27 ` Markus Trippelsdorf
2010-11-14 20:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-14 23:43 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 0:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-15 0:26 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-15 1:13 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 3:12 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-15 14:00 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 8:57 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-15 11:32 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 11:46 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 12:57 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-11-15 21:25 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 22:48 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 1:56 ` Vivek Goyal
2010-11-16 2:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-17 8:06 ` Balbir Singh
2010-11-16 14:02 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 14:11 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 14:47 ` Dhaval Giani
2010-11-16 17:03 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 17:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 18:16 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 18:21 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 18:33 ` Paul Menage
2010-11-16 18:55 ` david
2010-11-16 18:59 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 19:09 ` Vivek Goyal
2010-11-16 19:13 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 19:22 ` Vivek Goyal
2010-11-16 19:25 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 19:40 ` Vivek Goyal
2010-11-16 19:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 19:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 19:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 20:03 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 20:12 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 18:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 19:03 ` Pekka Enberg
2010-11-16 20:21 ` Kay Sievers
2010-11-16 20:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 20:31 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-17 13:21 ` Stephen Clark
2010-11-16 19:08 ` david
2010-11-16 20:33 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 20:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 21:14 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-17 13:23 ` Stephen Clark
2010-11-18 22:33 ` Hans-Peter Jansen [this message]
2010-11-18 23:12 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-18 23:35 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-18 23:43 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-18 23:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-19 0:02 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 0:07 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 11:57 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 14:24 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 14:43 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 14:55 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 0:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-19 0:59 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 1:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-19 1:12 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-19 1:23 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 2:28 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-19 9:02 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 11:49 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 12:19 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 12:55 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2010-11-19 13:00 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 13:20 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
2010-11-19 12:31 ` Paul Menage
2010-11-19 12:51 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 13:03 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-19 12:38 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-22 6:22 ` Balbir Singh
2010-11-18 23:29 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 20:44 ` Pekka Enberg
2010-11-16 19:27 ` Dhaval Giani
2010-11-16 19:42 ` Diego Calleja
2010-11-16 19:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 19:56 ` Paul Menage
2010-11-16 20:17 ` Vivek Goyal
2010-11-16 20:50 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-20 22:16 ` Mika Laitio
2010-11-21 0:19 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 20:28 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 20:46 ` David Miller
2010-11-16 21:08 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 21:14 ` David Miller
2010-11-16 20:52 ` Alan Cox
2010-11-16 21:08 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 21:19 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 23:39 ` Ted Ts'o
2010-11-17 0:21 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-17 2:06 ` Ted Ts'o
2010-11-17 14:57 ` Vivek Goyal
2010-11-17 15:01 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-17 17:16 ` John Stoffel
2010-11-19 5:20 ` Andev
2010-11-19 11:59 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 13:03 ` Ben Gamari
2010-11-19 13:07 ` Theodore Tso
2010-11-19 16:29 ` David Miller
2010-11-19 16:34 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-19 16:43 ` David Miller
2010-11-19 17:51 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-19 19:12 ` Ben Gamari
2010-11-19 19:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-20 1:33 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-19 20:38 ` Paul Menage
2010-11-20 1:13 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-20 4:25 ` Balbir Singh
2010-11-20 15:41 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-22 6:24 ` Balbir Singh
2010-11-22 19:21 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-19 19:31 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-19 13:21 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-17 22:34 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-17 22:37 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-17 22:45 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-17 22:52 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-18 15:00 ` Stephen Clark
2010-11-17 23:49 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 21:17 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-17 20:59 ` James Cloos
2010-11-22 6:16 ` Balbir Singh
2010-11-16 18:57 ` Stephen Clark
2010-11-16 19:12 ` Vivek Goyal
2010-11-16 19:57 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 20:36 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 19:42 ` Markus Trippelsdorf
2010-11-16 18:08 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 18:56 ` Stephen Clark
2010-11-16 20:05 ` Lennart Poettering
2010-11-16 20:15 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-19 0:35 ` H. Peter Anvin
2010-11-19 0:42 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-19 3:15 ` Mathieu Desnoyers
[not found] ` <20101120090955.GB12043@balbir.in.ibm.com>
2010-11-20 19:47 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 13:04 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-11-16 14:18 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 15:03 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-11-16 15:41 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 17:28 ` Ingo Molnar
2010-11-16 17:42 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-20 19:35 ` [PATCH v4] sched: automated per session " Mike Galbraith
2010-11-30 15:39 ` [tip:sched/core] sched: Add 'autogroup' scheduling feature: " tip-bot for Mike Galbraith
2010-12-15 17:50 ` Oleg Nesterov
2010-12-16 7:53 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-16 14:09 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-16 15:07 ` Oleg Nesterov
2011-01-04 14:18 ` [tip:sched/core] sched, autogroup: Fix potential access to freed memory tip-bot for Mike Galbraith
2010-12-20 13:08 ` [tip:sched/core] sched: Add 'autogroup' scheduling feature: automated per session task groups Bharata B Rao
2010-12-20 13:19 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-12-20 15:46 ` Bharata B Rao
2010-12-20 15:53 ` Bharata B Rao
2010-12-21 8:33 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-12-20 16:39 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-21 5:04 ` Bharata B Rao
2010-12-21 5:50 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-04 17:39 ` [PATCH v4] sched: " Colin Walters
2010-12-04 18:33 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-12-04 20:01 ` Colin Walters
2010-12-04 22:39 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-12-04 23:43 ` Colin Walters
2010-12-05 0:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-12-05 7:47 ` Ray Lee
2010-12-05 19:22 ` Colin Walters
2010-12-05 20:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-12-05 22:47 ` Colin Walters
2010-12-05 22:58 ` Jesper Juhl
2010-12-05 23:05 ` Jesper Juhl
2010-12-07 18:51 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-12-05 10:18 ` Con Kolivas
2010-12-05 11:36 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-05 20:58 ` Ingo Molnar
2010-12-04 23:31 ` david
2010-12-05 11:11 ` Nikos Chantziaras
2010-12-05 15:12 ` [PATCH v4] Regression: " Alan Cox
2010-12-05 16:16 ` Florian Mickler
2010-12-05 19:48 ` Alan Cox
2010-12-06 16:03 ` Florian Mickler
2010-12-05 16:59 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-05 17:09 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-05 17:15 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-12-06 0:28 ` [PATCH v4] " Valdis.Kletnieks
2010-11-16 14:01 ` [RFC/RFT PATCH v3] sched: automated per tty " Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 14:19 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-17 1:31 ` Kyle McMartin
2010-11-17 1:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-17 1:56 ` Kyle McMartin
2010-11-17 2:14 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 0:02 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 22:41 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2010-11-15 23:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-20 19:33 ` Jesper Juhl
2010-11-20 19:51 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-20 20:37 ` Jesper Juhl
2010-11-20 22:02 ` Konstantin Svist
2010-11-20 22:15 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-20 22:18 ` Thomas Fjellstrom
2010-11-20 20:25 ` Samuel Thibault
2010-11-15 23:46 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-15 23:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 0:04 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 1:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-16 1:55 ` Paul Menage
2010-11-16 12:58 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-11-16 18:25 ` Paul Menage
2010-11-16 13:59 ` Peter Zijlstra
2010-11-16 14:26 ` Mike Galbraith
2010-10-21 11:27 ` [RFC/RFT PATCH] " Mike Galbraith
2010-10-20 13:55 ` Markus Trippelsdorf
2010-10-20 14:41 ` Mike Galbraith
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