From: KOSAKI Motohiro <kosaki.motohiro@jp.fujitsu.com>
To: David Rientjes <rientjes@google.com>
Cc: kosaki.motohiro@jp.fujitsu.com,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Ying Han <yinghan@google.com>, Bodo Eggert <7eggert@web.de>,
Mandeep Singh Baines <msb@google.com>,
"Figo.zhang" <figo1802@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] Revert oom rewrite series
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2010 16:16:56 +0900 (JST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20101123151731.7B7B.A69D9226@jp.fujitsu.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1011150215460.2986@chino.kir.corp.google.com>
Sorry for the delay.
> On Mon, 15 Nov 2010, KOSAKI Motohiro wrote:
>
> > Of cource, I denied. He seems to think number of email is meaningful than
> > how talk about. but it's incorrect and makes no sense. Why not? Also, He
> > have to talk about logically. "Hey, I think it's not bug" makes no sense.
> > Such claim don't solve anything. userland is still unhappy. Why not?
> > I want to quickly action.
>
> If there are pending complaints or bugs that I haven't addressed, please
> bring them to my attention. To date, I know of no issues that have been
> raised that I have not addressed; you're always free to disagree with my
> position, but in the end you may find that when the kernel moves in a
> different direction that you should begin to accept it.
I can't understand. Why do I need to ignore userland folks? WHY?
I have no reason userland complain. I tend to prefer to avoid userland
folks painful than kernel developers.
>
> > That said, If anyone want to change userland ABI, Be carefully. They have
> > to investigate userland usecase carefully and avoid to break them carefully
> > again. If someone think "hey, It's no big matter. userland rewritten can solve
> > an issue", I strongly disagree. they don't understand why all of userland
> > applications rewritten is harmful.
>
> You may remember that the initial version of my rewrite replaced oom_adj
> entirely with the new oom_score_adj semantics. Others suggested that it
> be seperated into a new tunable and the old tunable deprecated for a
> lengthy period of time. I accepted that criticism and understood the
> drawbacks of replacing the tunable immediately and followed those
> suggestions. I disagree with you that the deprecation of oom_adj for a
> period of two years is as dramatic as you imply and I disagree that users
> are experiencing problems with the linear scale that it now operates on
> versus the old exponential scale.
Yes and No. People wanted to separate AND don't break old one.
>
> > 1) About two month ago, Dave hansen observed strange OOM issue because he
> > has a big machine and ALL process are not so big. thus, eventually all
> > process got oom-score=0 and oom-killer didn't work.
> >
> > https://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/linux-driver-devel/2010/9/9/6886383
> >
> > DavidR changed oom-score to +1 in such situation.
> >
> > http://kerneltrap.org/mailarchive/linux-kernel/2010/9/9/4617455
> >
> > But it is completely bognus. If all process have score=1, oom-killer fall
> > back to purely random killer. I expected and explained his patch has
> > its problem at half years ago. but he didn't fix yet.
> >
>
> The resolution with which the oom killer considers memory is at 0.1% of
> system RAM at its highest (smaller when you have a memory controller,
> cpuset, or mempolicy constrained oom). It considers a task within 0.1% of
> memory of another task to have equal "badness" to kill, we don't break
> ties in between that resolution -- it all depends on which one shows up in
> the tasklist first. If you disagree with that resolution, which I support
> as being high enough, then you may certainly propose a patch to make it
> even finer at 0.01%, 0.001%, etc. It would only change oom_badness() to
> range between [0,10000], [0,100000], etc.
No.
Think Moore's Law. rational value will be not able to work in future anyway.
10 years ago, I used 20M bytes memory desktop machine and I'm now using 2GB.
memory amount is growing and growing. and bash size doesn't grwoing so fast.
>
> > 2) Also half years ago, I did explained oom_adj is used from multiple
> > applications. And we can't break them. But DavidR didn't fix.
> >
>
> And we didn't. oom_adj is still there and maps linearly to oom_score_adj;
> you just can't show a single application where that mapping breaks because
> it was based on an actual calculation.
>
> If you would like to cite these "multiple" applications that need to be
> converted to use oom_score_adj (I know of udev), please let me know and
> if they're open-source applications then I will commit to submitting
> patches for them myself. I believe the two year window is sufficient for
> everyone else, though.
If you want, you have to change userland at first and by yourself. Don't
claim anyoneelse should working for you.
> > 3) Also about four month ago, I and kamezawa-san pointed out his patch
> > don't work on memcg. It also haven't been fixed.
>
> I don't know what you're referring to here, sorry.
You should have read my patch. Even though you haven't use memcg, We do.
> As kamezawa-san pointed out, This break cgroup and lxr environment.
> He said,
> > Assume 2 proceses A, B which has oom_score_adj of 300 and 0
> > And A uses 200M, B uses 1G of memory under 4G system
> >
> > Under the system.
> > A's socre = (200M *1000)/4G + 300 = 350
> > B's score = (1G * 1000)/4G = 250.
> >
> > In the cpuset, it has 2G of memory.
> > A's score = (200M * 1000)/2G + 300 = 400
> > B's socre = (1G * 1000)/2G = 500
> >
> > This priority-inversion don't happen in current system.
>
> > In the other hand, You can't explain what worth OOM-rewritten patch has.
> > Because there is nothing. It is only "powerful"(TM) for Google. but
> > instead It has zero worth for every other people. Here is just technical
> > issue. Bah.
> >
>
> Please see my reply to Figo.zhang where I enumerate the four reasons why
> the new userspace tunable is more powerful than oom_adj.
I'm NOT interesting *powerful* crap. Please DON'T talk which is powerful.
I can only said, It's useful only for you.
> At this point, I can only speculate that your distaste for the new oom
> killer is one of disposition; it seems like everytime you reply to an
> email (or, more regularly, just repost your revert) that you come into it
> with the attitude that my response cannot possibly be correct and that the
> way you see things is exactly as they should be. If you were to consider
> other people's opinions, however, you may find some common ground that can
> be met. I certainly did that when I introduced oom_score_adj instead of
> replacing oom_adj immediatley. I also did it when I removed the forkbomb
> detector from the rewrite. I also did it when considering swap in the
> heuristic when it initially was only rss. Andrew is in the position where
> he has to make a judgment call on what should be included and what
> shouldn't and it should be pretty darn clear after you post your revert
> the first time, then the second time, then the third time, then the fourth
> time, and now the fifth time.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2010-11-23 7:18 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 37+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2010-11-14 5:07 [PATCH] Revert oom rewrite series KOSAKI Motohiro
2010-11-14 19:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2010-11-15 0:54 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2010-11-15 2:19 ` Andrew Morton
[not found] ` <AANLkTik_SDaiu2eQsJ9+4ywLR5K5V1Od-hwop6gwas3F@mail.gmail.com>
2010-11-15 4:41 ` Figo.zhang
2010-11-15 6:57 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2010-11-15 10:34 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-15 23:31 ` Jesper Juhl
2010-11-16 0:06 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-16 10:04 ` Martin Knoblauch
2010-11-16 10:33 ` Alessandro Suardi
2010-11-16 0:13 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2010-11-16 6:43 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-16 11:03 ` Alan Cox
2010-11-16 13:03 ` Florian Mickler
2010-11-16 14:55 ` Alan Cox
2010-11-16 20:57 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-16 21:01 ` Fabio Comolli
2010-11-17 4:04 ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2010-11-16 15:15 ` Alejandro Riveira Fernández
2010-11-23 7:16 ` KOSAKI Motohiro [this message]
2010-11-28 1:45 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-30 13:04 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2010-11-30 20:02 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-23 7:16 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2010-11-23 23:51 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2010-11-14 21:58 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-15 23:33 ` Bodo Eggert
2010-11-15 23:50 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-17 0:06 ` Bodo Eggert
2010-11-17 0:25 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-17 0:48 ` Mandeep Singh Baines
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2010-11-10 15:14 [PATCH v3]mm/oom-kill: direct hardware access processes should get bonus Figo.zhang
2010-11-10 15:24 ` Figo.zhang
2010-11-14 5:21 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
2010-11-14 21:33 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-15 3:26 ` [PATCH] Revert oom rewrite series Figo.zhang
2010-11-15 10:14 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-15 10:57 ` Alan Cox
2010-11-15 20:54 ` David Rientjes
2010-11-23 7:16 ` KOSAKI Motohiro
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