From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
To: Torvald Riegel <triegel@redhat.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Will Deacon <will.deacon@arm.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Ramana Radhakrishnan <Ramana.Radhakrishnan@arm.com>,
David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
"linux-arch@vger.kernel.org" <linux-arch@vger.kernel.org>,
"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"akpm@linux-foundation.org" <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
"mingo@kernel.org" <mingo@kernel.org>,
"gcc@gcc.gnu.org" <gcc@gcc.gnu.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/5] arch: atomic rework
Date: Sat, 22 Feb 2014 12:17:42 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20140222201742.GP4250@linux.vnet.ibm.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <1393093837.28840.4834.camel@triegel.csb>
On Sat, Feb 22, 2014 at 07:30:37PM +0100, Torvald Riegel wrote:
> xagsmtp2.20140222183231.5343@emeavsc.vnet.ibm.com
> X-Xagent-Gateway: emeavsc.vnet.ibm.com (XAGSMTP2 at EMEAVSC)
>
> On Thu, 2014-02-20 at 10:18 -0800, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 06:26:08PM +0100, Torvald Riegel wrote:
> > > xagsmtp2.20140220172700.0416@vmsdvm4.vnet.ibm.com
> > > X-Xagent-Gateway: vmsdvm4.vnet.ibm.com (XAGSMTP2 at VMSDVM4)
> > >
> > > On Wed, 2014-02-19 at 20:01 -0800, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > > On Wed, Feb 19, 2014 at 04:53:49PM -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, Feb 18, 2014 at 11:47 AM, Torvald Riegel <triegel@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > > On Tue, 2014-02-18 at 09:44 -0800, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Can you point to it? Because I can find a draft standard, and it sure
> > > > > >> as hell does *not* contain any clarity of the model. It has a *lot* of
> > > > > >> verbiage, but it's pretty much impossible to actually understand, even
> > > > > >> for somebody who really understands memory ordering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mjb220/n3132.pdf
> > > > > > This has an explanation of the model up front, and then the detailed
> > > > > > formulae in Section 6. This is from 2010, and there might have been
> > > > > > smaller changes since then, but I'm not aware of any bigger ones.
> > > > >
> > > > > Ahh, this is different from what others pointed at. Same people,
> > > > > similar name, but not the same paper.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will read this version too, but from reading the other one and the
> > > > > standard in parallel and trying to make sense of it, it seems that I
> > > > > may have originally misunderstood part of the whole control dependency
> > > > > chain.
> > > > >
> > > > > The fact that the left side of "? :", "&&" and "||" breaks data
> > > > > dependencies made me originally think that the standard tried very
> > > > > hard to break any control dependencies. Which I felt was insane, when
> > > > > then some of the examples literally were about the testing of the
> > > > > value of an atomic read. The data dependency matters quite a bit. The
> > > > > fact that the other "Mathematical" paper then very much talked about
> > > > > consume only in the sense of following a pointer made me think so even
> > > > > more.
> > > > >
> > > > > But reading it some more, I now think that the whole "data dependency"
> > > > > logic (which is where the special left-hand side rule of the ternary
> > > > > and logical operators come in) are basically an exception to the rule
> > > > > that sequence points end up being also meaningful for ordering (ok, so
> > > > > C11 seems to have renamed "sequence points" to "sequenced before").
> > > > >
> > > > > So while an expression like
> > > > >
> > > > > atomic_read(p, consume) ? a : b;
> > > > >
> > > > > doesn't have a data dependency from the atomic read that forces
> > > > > serialization, writing
> > > > >
> > > > > if (atomic_read(p, consume))
> > > > > a;
> > > > > else
> > > > > b;
> > > > >
> > > > > the standard *does* imply that the atomic read is "happens-before" wrt
> > > > > "a", and I'm hoping that there is no question that the control
> > > > > dependency still acts as an ordering point.
> > > >
> > > > The control dependency should order subsequent stores, at least assuming
> > > > that "a" and "b" don't start off with identical stores that the compiler
> > > > could pull out of the "if" and merge. The same might also be true for ?:
> > > > for all I know. (But see below)
> > >
> > > I don't think this is quite true. I agree that a conditional store will
> > > not be executed speculatively (note that if it would happen in both the
> > > then and the else branch, it's not conditional); so, the store in
> > > "a;" (assuming it would be a store) won't happen unless the thread can
> > > really observe a true value for p. However, this is *this thread's*
> > > view of the world, but not guaranteed to constrain how any other thread
> > > sees the state. mo_consume does not contribute to
> > > inter-thread-happens-before in the same way that mo_acquire does (which
> > > *does* put a constraint on i-t-h-b, and thus enforces a global
> > > constraint that all threads have to respect).
> > >
> > > Is it clear which distinction I'm trying to show here?
> >
> > If you are saying that the control dependencies are a result of a
> > combination of the standard and the properties of the hardware that
> > Linux runs on, I am with you. (As opposed to control dependencies being
> > a result solely of the standard.)
>
> I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean :) Do you mean the
> control dependencies in the binary code, or the logical "control
> dependencies" in source programs?
At present, the intersection of those two sets, but only including those
control dependencies beginning with with a memory_order_consume load or a
[[carries_dependency]] function argument or return value.
Or something like that. ;-)
> > This was a deliberate decision in 2007 or so. At that time, the
> > documentation on CPU memory orderings were pretty crude, and it was
> > not clear that all relevant hardware respected control dependencies.
> > Back then, if you wanted an authoritative answer even to a fairly simple
> > memory-ordering question, you had to find a hardware architect, and you
> > probably waited weeks or even months for the answer. Thanks to lots
> > of work from the Cambridge guys at about the time that the standard was
> > finalized, we have a much better picture of what the hardware does.
>
> But this part I understand.
;-)
Thanx, Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2014-02-22 20:18 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 299+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2014-02-06 13:48 [RFC][PATCH 0/5] arch: atomic rework Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 13:48 ` [RFC][PATCH 1/5] ia64: Fix up smp_mb__{before,after}_clear_bit Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 13:48 ` [RFC][PATCH 2/5] arc,hexagon: Delete asm/barrier.h Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 13:48 ` [RFC][PATCH 3/5] arch: s/smp_mb__(before|after)_(atomic|clear)_(dec,inc,bit)/smp_mb__\1/g Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 19:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 9:52 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-06 13:48 ` [RFC][PATCH 4/5] arch: Generic atomic.h cleanup Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 17:49 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-06 13:48 ` [RFC][PATCH 5/5] arch: Sanitize atomic_t bitwise ops Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 14:43 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-02-06 16:14 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 16:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-06 17:52 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 17:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-06 18:09 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 18:25 ` [RFC][PATCH 0/5] arch: atomic rework David Howells
2014-02-06 18:30 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-06 18:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 18:55 ` Ramana Radhakrishnan
2014-02-06 18:59 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-06 19:27 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 21:17 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-06 22:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 23:44 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 4:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 7:44 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-07 16:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 16:55 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 17:06 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-07 17:13 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 17:20 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-07 18:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 17:46 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-07 18:43 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 18:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 0:27 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 0:56 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-10 1:16 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 1:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-10 1:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 2:04 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-10 3:21 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 3:45 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 11:46 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-10 19:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-11 15:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 6:06 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 9:19 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-12 17:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 18:12 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-17 18:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 20:39 ` Richard Biener
2014-02-17 22:14 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 22:27 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 5:07 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 9:50 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-14 19:19 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 17:39 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 5:39 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 18:07 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-13 0:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-13 20:03 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 2:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-14 4:43 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 17:29 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-14 19:21 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-14 19:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-14 20:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-15 2:08 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-15 2:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-15 2:48 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-15 6:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-15 6:58 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-15 18:07 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 18:59 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-17 19:19 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-17 19:41 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 23:12 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-15 17:45 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-15 18:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 19:55 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 20:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 21:21 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 22:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 22:25 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 22:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 23:41 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 0:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 1:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:38 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 16:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 19:57 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 23:10 ` Alec Teal
2014-02-18 0:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 15:31 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 16:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 17:16 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 18:23 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 19:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 19:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 21:40 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:52 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-19 9:52 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 22:58 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-19 10:59 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 15:14 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-19 17:55 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 22:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 21:21 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:40 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-18 21:47 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 15:23 ` David Lang
2014-02-19 18:11 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:47 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-19 11:07 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 11:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-18 22:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-19 14:40 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-19 19:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 3:00 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 3:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 3:42 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 5:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 16:17 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 17:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 19:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 19:47 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 0:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 4:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 4:43 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 8:30 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 9:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 17:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 18:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 18:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 18:53 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 19:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-22 18:53 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-22 21:53 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-23 0:39 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-23 3:50 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-23 6:34 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-23 19:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 1:16 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 1:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 4:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 5:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 15:57 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 16:27 ` Richard Biener
2014-02-24 16:37 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 16:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 16:55 ` Michael Matz
2014-02-24 17:28 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 17:57 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 17:39 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-24 17:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 18:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 17:34 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-24 17:21 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 18:14 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 18:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 19:54 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-24 22:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-24 23:35 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-25 6:00 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 1:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-26 5:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-25 6:05 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-26 0:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 3:32 ` Jeff Law
2014-02-26 5:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-27 15:37 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-27 17:01 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-27 19:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-27 19:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-27 20:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-01 0:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-01 10:06 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-01 14:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-02 10:05 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-02 23:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-02 23:44 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-03 4:25 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 20:44 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-04 22:11 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-05 17:15 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-05 18:37 ` Peter Sewell
2014-03-03 18:55 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-03 19:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 20:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-04 19:00 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-04 21:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-05 16:54 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-05 18:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-07 18:33 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-07 19:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-05 16:26 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-05 18:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-07 17:45 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-07 19:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 18:59 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-03-03 15:36 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-27 17:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-27 19:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-28 1:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-03-03 19:01 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:56 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 19:45 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 22:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 22:52 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-21 18:35 ` Michael Matz
2014-02-21 19:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-21 22:10 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-21 22:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 13:09 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-26 18:43 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-27 0:52 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-24 13:55 ` Michael Matz
2014-02-24 17:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-26 13:04 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-26 18:27 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 18:44 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:56 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 18:23 ` Torvald Riegel
[not found] ` <CAHWkzRQZ8+gOGMFNyTKjFNzpUv6d_J1G9KL0x_iCa=YCgvEojQ@mail.gmail.com>
2014-02-21 19:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-21 19:41 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-21 19:48 ` Peter Sewell
[not found] ` <CAHWkzRSO82jU-9dtTEjHaW2FeLcEqdZXxp5Q8cmVTTT9uhZQYw@mail.gmail.com>
2014-02-21 20:22 ` Linus Torvalds
[not found] ` <CAHWkzRRxqhH+DnuQHu9bM4ywGBen3oqtT8W4Xqt1CFAHy2WQRg@mail.gmail.com>
2014-02-21 19:24 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 17:54 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-20 17:49 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 19:02 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 19:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 17:26 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-22 18:30 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-22 20:17 ` Paul E. McKenney [this message]
2014-02-20 17:14 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 17:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-20 18:12 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-20 18:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 5:01 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:56 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 16:51 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 20:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-17 21:05 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-15 17:30 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-15 19:15 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 22:09 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-17 22:32 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-17 23:17 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 0:09 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 15:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 11:48 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-10 11:49 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-10 12:05 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-10 15:04 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-10 16:22 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 18:44 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 0:06 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-10 3:51 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-12 5:13 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-12 18:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 21:09 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-06 21:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 22:58 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 4:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-07 9:13 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-07 16:44 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 22:13 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-06 23:25 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-06 23:33 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-02-07 12:01 ` Will Deacon
2014-02-07 16:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-06 19:21 ` Linus Torvalds
[not found] ` <52F93B7C.2090304@tilera.com>
[not found] ` <20140210205719.GY5002@laptop.programming.kicks-ass.net>
2014-02-10 21:08 ` Chris Metcalf
2014-02-10 21:14 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-18 12:12 Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 12:53 ` Peter Zijlstra
2014-02-18 16:08 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 14:56 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:16 ` Mark Batty
2014-02-18 17:17 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 15:33 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 16:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 17:38 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 18:21 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-18 18:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2014-02-18 19:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 20:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 20:43 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-18 21:29 ` Paul E. McKenney
2014-02-18 23:48 ` Peter Sewell
2014-02-19 9:46 ` Torvald Riegel
2014-02-26 3:06 George Spelvin
2014-02-26 5:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
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