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From: Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>
To: "H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>
Cc: Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org,
	joseph@codesourcery.com, john.stultz@linaro.org,
	hch@infradead.org, tglx@linutronix.de, geert@linux-m68k.org,
	lftan@altera.com, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, xfs@oss.sgi.com
Subject: Re: [RFC 11/32] xfs: convert to struct inode_time
Date: Sat, 31 May 2014 15:54:57 +1000
Message-ID: <20140531055457.GK14410@dastard> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <c7770275-61de-4e94-9586-5ee118f77ba5@email.android.com>


[ Please don't top post. ]

On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 06:22:55PM -0700, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> On May 30, 2014 6:14:50 PM PDT, Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com> wrote:
> >On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 05:41:14PM -0700, H. Peter Anvin wrote:
> >> On 05/30/2014 05:37 PM, Dave Chinner wrote:
> >> > 
> >> > IOWs, the filesystem has to be able to reject any attempt to
> >> > set a timestamp that is can't represent on disk otherwise Bad
> >> > Stuff will happen,
> >> 
> >> Actually it is questionable if it is worse to reject a
> >> timestamp or
> >just
> >> let it wrap.  Rejecting a valid timestamp is a bit like "You
> >> don't exist, go away."
> >
> >I think having the new systems calls being able to return EINVAL
> >if the value cannot be stored permanently on disk correctly is
> >the right thing to do. Having it silently mangled by the
> >filesystem and returning "everything is just fine, trust me" is
> >close to the worst solution I can think of. That's exactly what
> >leads to overflow bugs occurring....
> >
> >> > and filesystems have to be able to specify in their on disk
> >> > format what timestamp encoding is being used. The solution
> >will
> >> > be different for every filesystem that needs to support time
> >> > beyond 2038.
> >> 
> >> Actually the cutoff can be really different for each
> >> filesystem, not necessarily 2038.  However, I maintain the
> >> above still holds.
> >
> >Sure, but all filesystems are supposed to handle at least the
> >current unix epoch.
> >
> >> Consider a filesystem that kept timestamps in YYMMDDHHMMSS
> >> format. 
> >What
> >> would you have expected such a filesystem to do on Jan 1, 2000?
> >
> >Strawman.
> >
> >We don't need to cater for fundamentally broken designs that
> >can't even handle the current unix epoch correctly. If such
> >filesystems exist, then they can simple say "original unix epoch
> >support only" and do whatever crap they are doing right now.
>
> No, not a strawman.  Replace with Jan 26, 2038 and you have the
> same situation.

But that's not the problem I'm talking about.  The problem isn't the
roll-over date of the epoch - the problem is that we're changing the
in-memory meaning of time without changing what the filesystems
store on disk or how they translate them.

To use your example, what I'm actually talking about is the kernel
switching to CCYYMMDDHHMMSS while the filesystem has YYMMDDHHMMSS on
disk. The filesystem doesn't know the timestamp is now a different
format, so it could mangle it writing it to disk, or it could mangle
existing timestamps in the YY.. format reading them from disk and
putting them into CC.. format structures. IOWs, it will
incorrectly translate YY  format dates to CC format, or translate
something in the CC format as though it was in YY format. And it
wouldn't even know what was the correct format because there's
nothing telling it on disk whether the date is in CC or YY format.

Either way, you get mangled timestamps, the filesystem doesn't know
about it because it's just storing what the kernel gives it, the
kernel thinks they are fine because they are just opaque when read
back, but the user says "what the fuck did a reboot do to all these
timestamps?".

Hence your example of roll-over dates is a strawman - you've
constructed a problem that is irrelevant to the issue being pointed
out.

FWIW, we already have code in the superblock and VFS to avoid such
problems on filesystems with limited timestamp resolution (i.e
s_time_gran and current_fs_time()) so that what the VFS hands the
filesystem is exactly what the VFS expects to get back from disk
when comparing timestamps.

If we are changing the in-kernel timestamp to have a greater dynamic
range that anything we current support on disk, then we need support
for all filesystems for similar translation and constraint. The
filesystems need to be able to tell the kernel what they timestamp
range they support, and then the kernel needs to follow those
guidelines. And if the filesystem is mounted on a kernel that
doesn't support the current filesystem's timestamp format, then at
minimum that filesystem cannot do anything that writes a
timestamp....

Put simply: the filesystem defines the timestamp range that can be
used safely, not the userspace API. If the filesystem can't support
the date it is handed then that is an out-of-range error. Since
when have we accepted that it's OK to handle out-of-range data with
silent overflows or corruption of the data that we are attempting to
store? We're defining a new API to support a wider date range -
there is nothing that prevents us from saying ERANGE can be returned
to a timestamp that the file cannot store correctly....

Cheers,

Dave.
-- 
Dave Chinner
david@fromorbit.com

  reply index

Thread overview: 124+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-05-30 20:01 [RFC 00/32] making inode time stamps y2038 ready Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 01/32] fs: introduce new 'struct inode_time' Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  7:56   ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31  8:39     ` Andreas Schwab
2014-05-31 13:19       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31 13:46         ` Andreas Schwab
2014-05-31 14:54       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 16:15         ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31  9:03   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 14:53     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:55       ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 02/32] uapi: add struct __kernel_timespec{32,64} Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:18   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 15:09     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 03/32] fs: introduce sys_utimens64at Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  9:22   ` Andreas Schwab
2014-05-31 14:55     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 04/32] fs: introduce sys_newfstat64/sys_newfstatat64 Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 05/32] arch: hook up new stat and utimes syscalls Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 06/32] isofs: fix timestamps beyond 2027 Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  7:59   ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-05-31  8:47     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 07/32] fs/nfs: convert to struct inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 08/32] fs/ceph: convert to 'struct inode_time' Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 09/32] fs/pstore: convert to struct inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 21:14   ` Kees Cook
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 10/32] fs/coda: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 11/32] xfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  0:37   ` Dave Chinner
2014-05-31  0:41     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31  1:14       ` Dave Chinner
2014-05-31  1:22         ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31  5:54           ` Dave Chinner [this message]
2014-05-31  8:41             ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 15:46               ` Nicolas Pitre
2014-06-01 19:56                 ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-01 20:26                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 11:02                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02  1:36                   ` Nicolas Pitre
2014-06-02  2:22                     ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-02  7:09                       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2014-06-02 10:56                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 11:57                       ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 12:38                         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 13:15                           ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 12:52                         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 13:07                           ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 15:01                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 14:52                         ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 15:04                       ` Chuck Lever
2014-06-02 15:31                         ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 17:12                           ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 18:50                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 22:29                             ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 22:32                               ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 23:32                                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2014-06-02 23:33                                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-03 13:09                                   ` Roger Willcocks
2014-06-02 18:52                         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 18:58                         ` Roger Willcocks
2014-06-02 19:04                           ` Chuck Lever
2014-06-02 19:10                             ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-01  0:39               ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-02 14:00             ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-05-31 15:37         ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-01  0:24           ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-02  0:28             ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-02 11:35               ` Roger Willcocks
2014-06-02 11:43               ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03  0:32                 ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-03  7:33                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03  8:41                     ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-03  9:16                       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 12/32] btrfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 13/32] ext3: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31  9:10   ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-05-31 14:32     ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 14/32] ext4: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 15/32] cifs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 16/32] ntfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 17/32] ubifs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02  7:54   ` Artem Bityutskiy
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 18/32] ocfs2: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 19/32] fs/fat: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 20/32] afs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 21/32] udf: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 22/32] fs: convert simple fs to inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 23:06   ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 23/32] logfs: convert to struct inode_time Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 24/32] hfs, hfsplus: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:23   ` Vyacheslav Dubeyko
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 25/32] gfs2: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02  9:52   ` Steven Whitehouse
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 26/32] reiserfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 27/32] jffs2: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 28/32] adfs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 29/32] f2fs: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 30/32] fuse: " Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 31/32] scsi: fnic: use current_kernel_time() for timestamp Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-30 20:01 ` [RFC 32/32] fs: use new inode_time definition unconditionally Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:30 ` [RFC 00/32] making inode time stamps y2038 ready Vyacheslav Dubeyko
2014-06-03 12:21   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 14:51 ` Richard Cochran
2014-05-31 15:23   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-05-31 18:22     ` Richard Cochran
2014-05-31 19:34       ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-01  4:46         ` Richard Cochran
2014-06-01  4:44     ` Richard Cochran
2014-06-02 13:52 ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-06-02 19:19   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 19:26     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-02 19:55       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 21:57         ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-03 14:22           ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03 14:33             ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-06-03 14:37               ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-03 21:38             ` Dave Chinner
2014-06-04 15:03               ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-04 17:30                 ` Nicolas Pitre
2014-06-04 19:24                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-05  0:10                     ` H. Peter Anvin
2014-06-10  9:54                       ` Arnd Bergmann
2014-06-02 21:02     ` Joseph S. Myers
2014-06-04 15:05       ` Arnd Bergmann

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