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From: Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
Cc: "Mickaël Salaün" <mic@digikod.net>,
	"linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	"Alexei Starovoitov" <ast@kernel.org>,
	"Arnd Bergmann" <arnd@arndb.de>,
	"Casey Schaufler" <casey@schaufler-ca.com>,
	"Daniel Borkmann" <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	"Daniel Mack" <daniel@zonque.org>,
	"David Drysdale" <drysdale@google.com>,
	"David S . Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
	"Elena Reshetova" <elena.reshetova@intel.com>,
	"Eric W . Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
	"James Morris" <james.l.morris@oracle.com>,
	"Kees Cook" <keescook@chromium.org>,
	"Paul Moore" <pmoore@redhat.com>,
	"Sargun Dhillon" <sargun@sargun.me>,
	"Serge E . Hallyn" <serge@hallyn.com>,
	"Tejun Heo" <tj@kernel.org>, "Will Drewry" <wad@chromium.org>,
	"kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com"
	<kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com>,
	"Linux API" <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	"LSM List" <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	"Network Development" <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	"open list:CONTROL GROUP (CGROUP)" <cgroups@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC v3 18/22] cgroup,landlock: Add CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS to handle unprivileged hooks
Date: Wed, 14 Sep 2016 21:00:56 -0700
Message-ID: <20160915040054.GA65308@ast-mbp.thefacebook.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALCETrWXjJZZRj5XvDQ+-Grue+b4MW2TFKsfgYYFYoFBFVH71g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 07:27:08PM -0700, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
> >> >
> >> > This RFC handle both cgroup and seccomp approaches in a similar way. I
> >> > don't see why building on top of cgroup v2 is a problem. Is there
> >> > security issues with delegation?
> >>
> >> What I mean is: cgroup v2 delegation has a functionality problem.
> >> Tejun says [1]:
> >>
> >> We haven't had to face this decision because cgroup has never properly
> >> supported delegating to applications and the in-use setups where this
> >> happens are custom configurations where there is no boundary between
> >> system and applications and adhoc trial-and-error is good enough a way
> >> to find a working solution.  That wiggle room goes away once we
> >> officially open this up to individual applications.
> >>
> >> Unless and until that changes, I think that landlock should stay away
> >> from cgroups.  Others could reasonably disagree with me.
> >
> > Ours and Sargun's use cases for cgroup+lsm+bpf is not for security
> > and not for sandboxing. So the above doesn't matter in such contexts.
> > lsm hooks + cgroups provide convenient scope and existing entry points.
> > Please see checmate examples how it's used.
> >
> 
> To be clear: I'm not arguing at all that there shouldn't be
> bpf+lsm+cgroup integration.  I'm arguing that the unprivileged
> landlock interface shouldn't expose any cgroup integration, at least
> until the cgroup situation settles down a lot.

ahh. yes. we're perfectly in agreement here.
I'm suggesting that the next RFC shouldn't include unpriv
and seccomp at all. Once bpf+lsm+cgroup is merged, we can
argue about unpriv with cgroups and even unpriv as a whole,
since it's not a given. Seccomp integration is also questionable.
I'd rather not have seccomp as a gate keeper for this lsm.
lsm and seccomp are orthogonal hook points. Syscalls and lsm hooks
don't have one to one relationship, so mixing them up is only
asking for trouble further down the road.
If we really need to carry some information from seccomp to lsm+bpf,
it's easier to add eBPF support to seccomp and let bpf side deal
with passing whatever information. 

  reply index

Thread overview: 76+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2016-09-14  7:23 [RFC v3 00/22] Landlock LSM: Unprivileged sandboxing Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:23 ` [RFC v3 01/22] landlock: Add Kconfig Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:23 ` [RFC v3 02/22] bpf: Move u64_to_ptr() to BPF headers and inline it Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:23 ` [RFC v3 03/22] bpf,landlock: Add a new arraymap type to deal with (Landlock) handles Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:51   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 23:22     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 23:28       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 21:51         ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:53   ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 22:02     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:23 ` [RFC v3 04/22] bpf: Set register type according to is_valid_access() Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-19 14:54   ` Thomas Graf
2016-10-19 15:10     ` Daniel Borkmann
2016-09-14  7:23 ` [RFC v3 05/22] bpf,landlock: Add eBPF program subtype and is_valid_subtype() verifier Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-19 15:01   ` Thomas Graf
2016-09-14  7:23 ` [RFC v3 06/22] landlock: Add LSM hooks Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-19 15:19   ` Thomas Graf
2016-10-19 22:42     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 07/22] landlock: Handle file comparisons Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 19:07   ` Jann Horn
2016-09-14 22:39     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:06   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 23:02     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 23:24       ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 21:25         ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-20  0:12           ` lsm naming dilemma. " Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-20  1:10             ` Sargun Dhillon
2016-09-20 16:58               ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:30   ` Kees Cook
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 08/22] seccomp: Fix documentation for struct seccomp_filter Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 09/22] seccomp: Move struct seccomp_filter in seccomp.h Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 10/22] seccomp: Split put_seccomp_filter() with put_seccomp() Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 11/22] seccomp,landlock: Handle Landlock hooks per process hierarchy Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:43   ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-14 22:34     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:52       ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 21:05         ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 12/22] bpf: Cosmetic change for bpf_prog_attach() Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 13/22] bpf/cgroup: Replace struct bpf_prog with union bpf_object Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 14/22] bpf/cgroup: Make cgroup_bpf_update() return an error code Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:16   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 15/22] bpf/cgroup: Move capability check Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 16/22] bpf/cgroup,landlock: Handle Landlock hooks per cgroup Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-03 23:43   ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 20:58     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-10-05 21:25       ` Kees Cook
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 17/22] cgroup: Add access check for cgroup_get_from_fd() Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 22:06   ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 18/22] cgroup,landlock: Add CGRP_NO_NEW_PRIVS to handle unprivileged hooks Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:27   ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-14 22:11     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-15  1:25       ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-15  2:19         ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15  2:27           ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-15  4:00             ` Alexei Starovoitov [this message]
2016-09-15  4:08               ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-15  4:31                 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15  4:38                   ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-15  4:48                     ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-15 19:41                       ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-20  4:37                         ` Sargun Dhillon
2016-09-20 17:02                           ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-15 19:35         ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 19/22] landlock: Add interrupted origin Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 18:29   ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-09-14 22:14     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-15  1:19       ` Andy Lutomirski
2016-10-03 23:46         ` Kees Cook
2016-10-05 21:01           ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 20/22] landlock: Add update and debug access flags Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 21/22] bpf,landlock: Add optional skb pointer in the Landlock context Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:20   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 22:46     ` Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14  7:24 ` [RFC v3 22/22] samples/landlock: Add sandbox example Mickaël Salaün
2016-09-14 21:24   ` Alexei Starovoitov
2016-09-14 14:36 ` [RFC v3 00/22] Landlock LSM: Unprivileged sandboxing David Laight

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