From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1752813AbdFPIKH (ORCPT ); Fri, 16 Jun 2017 04:10:07 -0400 Received: from mx1.redhat.com ([209.132.183.28]:55138 "EHLO mx1.redhat.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1752352AbdFPIKC (ORCPT ); Fri, 16 Jun 2017 04:10:02 -0400 DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mx1.redhat.com BAAE35D5E9 Authentication-Results: ext-mx10.extmail.prod.ext.phx2.redhat.com; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=redhat.com Authentication-Results: ext-mx10.extmail.prod.ext.phx2.redhat.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=benjamin.tissoires@redhat.com DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 mx1.redhat.com BAAE35D5E9 Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2017 10:09:50 +0200 From: Benjamin Tissoires To: "Zheng, Lv" Cc: Peter Hutterer , Lennart Poettering , "Wysocki, Rafael J" , "Rafael J . Wysocki" , "Brown, Len" , Lv Zheng , "linux-acpi@vger.kernel.org" , "systemd-devel@lists.freedesktop.org" , "linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org" , "linux-input@vger.kernel.org" Subject: Re: [systemd-devel] [WIP PATCH 0/4] Rework the unreliable LID switch exported by ACPI Message-ID: <20170616080950.GM5085@mail.corp.redhat.com> References: <20170601184632.2980-1-benjamin.tissoires@redhat.com> <20170607074848.GE27006@gardel-login> <20170613100617.GD29589@mail.corp.redhat.com> <1AE640813FDE7649BE1B193DEA596E886CED0386@SHSMSX101.ccr.corp.intel.com> <20170615064715.GA6195@jelly> <1AE640813FDE7649BE1B193DEA596E886CED047B@SHSMSX101.ccr.corp.intel.com> <20170615075755.GA10001@jelly> <1AE640813FDE7649BE1B193DEA596E886CED0A03@SHSMSX101.ccr.corp.intel.com> <20170616072322.GL5085@mail.corp.redhat.com> <1AE640813FDE7649BE1B193DEA596E886CED0AC1@SHSMSX101.ccr.corp.intel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <1AE640813FDE7649BE1B193DEA596E886CED0AC1@SHSMSX101.ccr.corp.intel.com> X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.5.16 (mx1.redhat.com [10.5.110.39]); Fri, 16 Jun 2017 08:10:01 +0000 (UTC) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Jun 16 2017 or thereabouts, Zheng, Lv wrote: > Hi, Benjamin > > Let me just say something one more time. > > > From: Benjamin Tissoires [mailto:benjamin.tissoires@redhat.com] [snip] > > > > > > > > > > We can see: > > > > > "logind" has already implemented a timeout, and will not respond lid state > > > > > unless it can be stable within this timeout period. > > > > > I'm not an expert of logind, maybe this is because of "HoldOffTimeoutSec"? > > > > > > > > > > I feel "removing the input node for a period where its state is not trustful" > > > > > is technically identical to this mechanism. > > > > > > > > but you'd be making kernel policy based on one userspace implementation. > > > > e.g. libinput doesn't have a timeout period, it assumes the state is > > > > correct when an input node is present. > > > > > > Do you see practical issues? > > > > Yes, libinput can't rely on the LID switch information to disable > > touchpads/touchscreens that are potentially sending false positive. > > "potential" doesn't mean "practical", right? I was using potential to say that some actual devices are sending rightful states, while others are not (we already named them a lot in those countless threads). So potential here is from a user space perspective where you are not sure if the state is reliable or not (given we currently don't have this information about reliability). > After applying my last version. > There are no false-positives IMO. > There are only delays for the reliable key events. > ^^^^^^ > While the "delay" is very common in computing world. No, if there is a delay, there is a false positive, because the initial state is wrong with respect to the device physical state. > > > > After resume, SW_LID state could remain unreliable "close" for a while. > > > > This is not an option. It is not part of the protocol, having an > > unreliable state. > > > > > But that's just a kind of delay happens in all computing programs. > > > I suppose all power managing programs have already handled that. > > > I confirmed no breakage for systemd 233. > > > For systemd 229, it cannot handle it well due to bugs. > > > But my latest patch series has worked the bug around. > > > So I don't see any breakage related to post-resume incorrect state period. > > > Do you see problems that my tests haven't covered? > > > > The problems are that you are not following the protocol. And if systemd > > 233 works around it, that's good, but systemd is not the only listener > > of the LID switch input node, and you are still breaking those by > > refusing to follow the specification of the evdev protocol. > > As you are talking about protocol, let me just ask once. > > In computing world, > 1. delay is very common > There are bus turnaround, network turnaround, ... > Even measurement itself has delay described by Shannon sampling. > Should the delay be a part of the protocol? Please, you are either trolling or just kidding. If there are delays in the "computing world", these has to be handled by the kernel, and not exported to the user space if the kernel protocol says that the state is reliable. > 2. programs are acting according to rules (we call state machines) > States are only determined after measurement (like "quantum states") > I have Schroedinger's cat in my mind. > Events are determined as they always occur after measurement to trigger "quantum jumps". > So for EV_SW protocol, > Should programs rely on the reliable "quantum jumps", > Or should programs rely on the unreliable "quantum states"? No comments, this won't get us anywhere. > > I think most UI programs care no about state stored in the input node, > they only receive events raised from the input node. Bullshit. When you launch such a program, you need to query the state because you won't receive the event that happened way before the launch. > Why should the kernel export a fade-in/fade-out input node to the UI programs and ask them to change? > > The only program that cares about the state stored in the input node is libinput. > So why should every user program be changed to make libinput easier? No, all program that listen to LID switches input nodes care about the state. We already told you that, you just don't listen: - systemd cares about the state as it does polling on the input node in case it misses an event - libinput cares about the state as previously mentioned - gnome-setting-daemons cares about the state given it decides whether or not lighting up the monitors depending on the state. And if you relaunch the daemon, it'll query the state to decide what is the best arrangement for the screens - KDE should do the same (as it is not a daemon that can catch any events) And I really don't know why I am telling you that. The rule is simple: there is a kernel protocol, which is a contract between the kernel and the user space. With such "delays" this acpi/button.c driver doesn't follow the protocol. So it's a bug. End of the story. If you want to have a transient state with delay or such, feel free to write down a protocol for such tri-state switch, but I doubt this will be accepted by the input maintainer. Cheers, Benjamin > > Cheers, > Lv