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From: Will Deacon <will.deacon@arm.com>
To: Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>
Cc: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
	Andrea Parri <andrea.parri@amarulasolutions.com>,
	"Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com>,
	LKMM Maintainers -- Akira Yokosawa <akiyks@gmail.com>,
	Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@gmail.com>,
	Daniel Lustig <dlustig@nvidia.com>,
	David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	Jade Alglave <j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk>,
	Luc Maranget <luc.maranget@inria.fr>,
	Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@gmail.com>,
	Kernel development list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] tools/memory-model: Add extra ordering for locks and remove it for ordinary release/acquire
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 18:14:52 +0100
Message-ID: <20180712171451.GI26935@arm.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.1807121236470.1306-100000@iolanthe.rowland.org>

Hi Alan,

On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 01:04:27PM -0400, Alan Stern wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
> > But as you (and Will) point out, we don't so much care about rmw-acquire
> > semantics as much as that we care about unlock+lock behaviour. Another
> > way to look at this is to define:
> > 
> >   smp-store-release + rmw-acquire := TSO (ideally smp_mb)
> > 
> > But then we also have to look at:
> > 
> >   rmw-release + smp-load-acquire
> >   rmw-release + rmw-acquire
> 
> Let's assume that rmw-release is equivalent, in terms of ordering
> strength, to smp_store_release().  Then we can focus our attention on
> just the acquire part.

I can live with that, but it does add another special case, where we could
otherwise just special case acquire/release for the load/store variants
vs everything else.

> On PowerPC, for instance, if spin_lock() used a full HWSYNC fence
> then unlock+lock would become RCsc -- even with no changes to
> spin_unlock().
> 
> > for completeness sake, and I would suggest they result in (at least) the
> > same (TSO) ordering as the one we really care about.
> > 
> > One alternative is to no longer use smp_store_release() for unlock(),
> > and say define atomic_set_release() to be in the rmw-release class
> > instead of being a simple smp_store_release().
> > 
> > Another, and I like this proposal least, is to introduce a new barrier
> > to make this all work.
> 
> This apparently boils down to two questions:
> 
> 	Should spin_lock/spin_unlock be RCsc?

I would love that to be the case, but I'm not asking you to fight that
battle :)

> 	Should rmw-acquire be strong enough so that smp_store_release + 
> 	rmw-acquire is RCtso?
> 
> If both answers are No, we end up with the v3 patch.  If the first
> answer is No and the second is Yes, we end up with the v2 patch.  The
> problem is that different people seem to want differing answers.

Just to be extra unhelpful: I'm happy with either v2 or v3. I suspect Daniel
is the one to convince on v2, because it's RISC-V that's affected by this.

Will

  reply index

Thread overview: 84+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-07-09 20:01 Alan Stern
2018-07-09 21:45 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-10 13:57   ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 16:25     ` Paul E. McKenney
     [not found]       ` <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.1807101416390.1449-100000@iolanthe.rowland.org>
2018-07-10 19:58         ` [PATCH v3] " Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-10 20:24           ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 20:31             ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-11  9:43         ` Will Deacon
2018-07-11 15:42           ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-11 16:17             ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 18:03               ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-11 16:34           ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-11 18:10             ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-10  9:38 ` [PATCH v2] " Andrea Parri
2018-07-10 14:48   ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 15:24     ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-10 15:34       ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 23:14         ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11  9:43   ` Will Deacon
2018-07-11 12:34     ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 12:54       ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 15:57       ` Will Deacon
2018-07-11 16:28         ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 17:00         ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-11 17:50           ` Daniel Lustig
2018-07-12  8:34             ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12  9:29             ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12  7:40       ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12  9:34         ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12  9:45           ` Will Deacon
2018-07-13  2:17             ` Daniel Lustig
2018-07-12 11:52         ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 12:01           ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 12:11             ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 13:48           ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 16:19             ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-12 17:04             ` Alan Stern
2018-07-12 17:14               ` Will Deacon [this message]
2018-07-12 17:28               ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-12 18:05                 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 18:10                   ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-12 19:52                     ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 20:24                       ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-13  2:05                     ` Daniel Lustig
2018-07-13  4:03                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-13  9:07                       ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-13  9:35                         ` Will Deacon
2018-07-13 17:16                           ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-13 19:06                             ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-14  1:51                               ` Alan Stern
2018-07-14  2:58                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-16  2:31                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-13 11:08                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-13 13:15                       ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-13 16:42                         ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-13 19:56                           ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-16 14:40                           ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-16 19:01                             ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-16 19:30                             ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 14:45                               ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-17 16:19                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 18:33                                   ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 18:42                                     ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-17 19:40                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 19:47                                       ` Alan Stern
2018-07-17 18:44                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 18:49                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 19:42                                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 19:37                                       ` Alan Stern
2018-07-17 20:13                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 19:38                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 19:40                                     ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-17 19:52                                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-18 12:31                                   ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-18 13:16                             ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-12 17:52               ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 20:43                 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-12 21:13                   ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 21:23                     ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 18:33               ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 17:45             ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-10 16:56 ` Daniel Lustig
     [not found]   ` <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.1807101315140.1449-100000@iolanthe.rowland.org>
2018-07-10 23:31     ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 14:19       ` Alan Stern

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