From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com>
To: Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>
Cc: Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>,
Andrea Parri <andrea.parri@amarulasolutions.com>,
Will Deacon <will.deacon@arm.com>,
LKMM Maintainers -- Akira Yokosawa <akiyks@gmail.com>,
Boqun Feng <boqun.feng@gmail.com>,
Daniel Lustig <dlustig@nvidia.com>,
David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
Jade Alglave <j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk>,
Luc Maranget <luc.maranget@inria.fr>,
Nicholas Piggin <npiggin@gmail.com>,
Kernel development list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] tools/memory-model: Add extra ordering for locks and remove it for ordinary release/acquire
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:28:38 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20180712172838.GU3593@linux.vnet.ibm.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.1807121236470.1306-100000@iolanthe.rowland.org>
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 01:04:27PM -0400, Alan Stern wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018, Peter Zijlstra wrote:
>
> > > But again, these are stuble patterns, and my guess is that several/
> > > most kernel developers really won't care about such guarantees (and
> > > if some will do, they'll have the tools to figure out what they can
> > > actually rely on ...)
> >
> > Yes it is subtle, yes most people won't care, however the problem is
> > that it is subtly the wrong way around. People expect causality, this is
> > a human failing perhaps, but that's how it is.
> >
> > And I strongly feel we should have our locks be such that they don't
> > subtly break things.
> >
> > Take for instance the pattern where RCU relies on RCsc locks, this is an
> > entirely simple and straight forward use of locks, yet completely fails
> > on this subtle point.
>
> Do you happen to remember exactly where in the kernel source this
> occurs?
Look for the uses of raw_spin_lock_irq_rcu_node() and friends in
kernel/rcu and include/linux/*rcu*, along with the explanation in
Documentation/RCU/Design/Memory-Ordering/Tree-RCU-Memory-Ordering.html
I must confess that I am not following exactly what Peter is calling
out as the failure. My best guess is that he is leading up to his
call for RCsc locks, but I might have missed a turn.
But Peter did supply raw_spin_lock_irq_rcu_node(), which is a marked
improvement over the earlier open-coding of smp_mb__after_unlock_lock()
after each and every acquisition of the rcu_node structure's ->lock,
so overall I cannot complain. ;-)
Thanx, Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-07-12 17:26 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 84+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-07-09 20:01 [PATCH v2] tools/memory-model: Add extra ordering for locks and remove it for ordinary release/acquire Alan Stern
2018-07-09 21:45 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-10 13:57 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 16:25 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.1807101416390.1449-100000@iolanthe.rowland.org>
2018-07-10 19:58 ` [PATCH v3] " Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-10 20:24 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 20:31 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-11 9:43 ` Will Deacon
2018-07-11 15:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-11 16:17 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 18:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-11 16:34 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-11 18:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-10 9:38 ` [PATCH v2] " Andrea Parri
2018-07-10 14:48 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 15:24 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-10 15:34 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-10 23:14 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 9:43 ` Will Deacon
2018-07-11 12:34 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 12:54 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 15:57 ` Will Deacon
2018-07-11 16:28 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 17:00 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-11 17:50 ` Daniel Lustig
2018-07-12 8:34 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 9:29 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 7:40 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 9:34 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 9:45 ` Will Deacon
2018-07-13 2:17 ` Daniel Lustig
2018-07-12 11:52 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 12:01 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 12:11 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 13:48 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 16:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-12 17:04 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-12 17:14 ` Will Deacon
2018-07-12 17:28 ` Paul E. McKenney [this message]
2018-07-12 18:05 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 18:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-12 19:52 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 20:24 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-13 2:05 ` Daniel Lustig
2018-07-13 4:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-13 9:07 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-13 9:35 ` Will Deacon
2018-07-13 17:16 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-13 19:06 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-14 1:51 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-14 2:58 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-16 2:31 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-13 11:08 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-13 13:15 ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-13 16:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-13 19:56 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-16 14:40 ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-16 19:01 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-16 19:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 14:45 ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-17 16:19 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 18:33 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 18:42 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-17 19:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 19:47 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-17 18:44 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 18:49 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 19:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 19:37 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-17 20:13 ` Linus Torvalds
2018-07-17 19:38 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-17 19:40 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-17 19:52 ` Paul E. McKenney
2018-07-18 12:31 ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-18 13:16 ` Michael Ellerman
2018-07-12 17:52 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 20:43 ` Alan Stern
2018-07-12 21:13 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 21:23 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-12 18:33 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-07-12 17:45 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-10 16:56 ` Daniel Lustig
[not found] ` <Pine.LNX.4.44L0.1807101315140.1449-100000@iolanthe.rowland.org>
2018-07-10 23:31 ` Andrea Parri
2018-07-11 14:19 ` Alan Stern
Reply instructions:
You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:
* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
and reply-to-all from there: mbox
Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style
* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
switches of git-send-email(1):
git send-email \
--in-reply-to=20180712172838.GU3593@linux.vnet.ibm.com \
--to=paulmck@linux.vnet.ibm.com \
--cc=akiyks@gmail.com \
--cc=andrea.parri@amarulasolutions.com \
--cc=boqun.feng@gmail.com \
--cc=dhowells@redhat.com \
--cc=dlustig@nvidia.com \
--cc=j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk \
--cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
--cc=luc.maranget@inria.fr \
--cc=npiggin@gmail.com \
--cc=peterz@infradead.org \
--cc=stern@rowland.harvard.edu \
--cc=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \
--cc=will.deacon@arm.com \
/path/to/YOUR_REPLY
https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html
* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line
before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).