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From: Christian Brauner <christian.brauner@ubuntu.com>
To: Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>
Cc: "Eric W. Biederman" <ebiederm@xmission.com>,
	Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>, Jann Horn <jann@thejh.net>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] files: rcu free files_struct
Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2020 23:30:24 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20201210223024.hi2zlluqqxcdaod4@wittgenstein> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20201210213624.GT3579531@ZenIV.linux.org.uk>

On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 09:36:24PM +0000, Al Viro wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2020 at 01:29:01PM -0600, Eric W. Biederman wrote:
> > Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk> writes:
> 
> > > What are the users of that thing and is there any chance to replace it
> > > with something saner?  IOW, what *is* realistically called for each
> > > struct file by the users of that iterator?
> > 
> > The bpf guys are no longer Cc'd and they can probably answer better than
> > I.
> > 
> > In a previous conversation it was mentioned that task_iter was supposed
> > to be a high performance interface for getting proc like data out of the
> > kernel using bpf.
> > 
> > If so I think that handles the lifetime issues as bpf programs are
> > supposed to be short-lived and can not pass references anywhere.
> > 
> > On the flip side it raises the question did the BPF guys just make the
> > current layout of task_struct and struct file part of the linux kernel
> > user space ABI?
> 
> An interesting question, that...  For the record: anybody coming to

Imho, they did. An example from the BPF LSM: a few weeks ago someone
asked me whether it would be possible to use the BPF LSM to enforce you
can't open files when they are on a given filesystem. Sine this bpf lsm
allows to attach to lsm hooks, say security_file_open(), you can get at
the superblock and check the filesyste type in a bpf program
(requiring btf), i.e. security_file_open, then follow
file->f_inode->i_sb->s_type->s_magic. If we change the say struct
super_block I'd expect these bpf programs to break. I'm sure there's
something clever that they came up with but it is nonetheless
uncomfortably close to making internal kernel structures part of
userspace ABI indeed.

> complain about a removed/renamed/replaced with something else field
> in struct file will be refered to Figure 1.
> 
> None of the VFS data structures has any layout stability warranties.
> If BPF folks want access to something in that, they are welcome to come
> and discuss the set of accessors; so far nothing of that sort has happened.
> 
> Direct access to any fields of any of those structures is subject to
> being broken at zero notice.
> 
> IMO we need some notation for a structure being off-limits for BPF, tracing,
> etc., along the lines of "don't access any field directly".

Indeed. I would also like to see a list where changes need to be sent
that are technically specific to a subsystem but will necessarily have
kernel-wide impact prime example: a lot of bpf.

Christian

  reply	other threads:[~2020-12-10 23:11 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 77+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <87r1on1v62.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 01/24] exec: Move unshare_files to fix posix file locking during exec Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:58   ` Linus Torvalds
2020-12-07 22:22   ` Al Viro
     [not found]     ` <87zh2pusdw.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
2020-12-07 23:35       ` Al Viro
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 02/24] exec: Simplify unshare_files Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-23 17:50   ` Oleg Nesterov
2020-11-23 18:25     ` Linus Torvalds
     [not found]       ` <87im9vx08i.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
     [not found]         ` <87pn42r0n7.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
2020-11-24 19:58           ` Linus Torvalds
2020-11-24 20:14             ` Arnd Bergmann
2020-11-24 23:44               ` Geoff Levand
2020-11-25  1:16                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-27 20:29                   ` Arnd Bergmann
2020-11-30 21:37                     ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-01  9:46                     ` Michael Ellerman
2020-11-25 21:51                 ` [RFC][PATCH] coredump: Document coredump code exclusively used by cell spufs Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-02 15:20                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-02 15:58                     ` Arnd Bergmann
2020-12-07 22:32       ` [PATCH v2 02/24] exec: Simplify unshare_files Al Viro
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 03/24] exec: Remove reset_files_struct Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 04/24] kcmp: In kcmp_epoll_target use fget_task Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 05/24] bpf: In bpf_task_fd_query " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 06/24] proc/fd: In proc_fd_link " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 07/24] file: Rename __fcheck_files to files_lookup_fd_raw Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 08/24] file: Factor files_lookup_fd_locked out of fcheck_files Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 09/24] file: Replace fcheck_files with files_lookup_fd_rcu Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-07 22:46   ` Al Viro
2020-12-07 22:49     ` Al Viro
2020-12-09 16:54       ` Al Viro
2020-12-09 17:44         ` Paul E. McKenney
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 10/24] file: Rename fcheck lookup_fd_rcu Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 11/24] file: Implement task_lookup_fd_rcu Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-21 18:19   ` Cyrill Gorcunov
     [not found]     ` <87blfp1r8b.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
2020-11-22 13:52       ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 12/24] proc/fd: In tid_fd_mode use task_lookup_fd_rcu Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 13/24] kcmp: In get_file_raw_ptr " Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-23 21:05   ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 14/24] file: Implement task_lookup_next_fd_rcu Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 15/24] proc/fd: In proc_readfd_common use task_lookup_next_fd_rcu Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-07 23:29   ` Al Viro
     [not found]     ` <877dprvs8e.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
2020-12-09  4:07       ` Al Viro
     [not found]         ` <877dprtxly.fsf@x220.int.ebiederm.org>
2020-12-09 14:23           ` Al Viro
2020-12-09 18:04             ` [PATCH] files: rcu free files_struct Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-09 19:13               ` Linus Torvalds
2020-12-09 19:50                 ` Al Viro
2020-12-09 21:32                   ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-10  6:13                     ` Al Viro
2020-12-10 19:29                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-10 21:36                         ` Al Viro
2020-12-10 22:30                           ` Christian Brauner [this message]
2020-12-10 22:54                             ` Al Viro
2020-12-10 23:10                               ` Al Viro
2020-12-09 21:42                   ` [PATCH -1/24] exec: Don't open code get_close_on_exec Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-09 22:04                 ` [PATCH] files: rcu free files_struct Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-09 19:49               ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-12-09 22:06                 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-12-09 22:58                 ` Al Viro
2020-12-09 23:01                   ` Linus Torvalds
2020-12-09 23:04                     ` Linus Torvalds
2020-12-09 23:07                     ` Matthew Wilcox
2020-12-09 23:26                       ` Paul E. McKenney
2020-12-09 23:29                       ` Linus Torvalds
2020-12-10  0:39                         ` Paul E. McKenney
2020-12-10  0:41                           ` Linus Torvalds
2020-12-10  0:57                             ` Paul E. McKenney
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 16/24] bpf/task_iter: In task_file_seq_get_next use task_lookup_next_fd_rcu Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-23 17:06   ` Yonghong Song
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 17/24] proc/fd: In fdinfo seq_show don't use get_files_struct Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 18/24] file: Merge __fd_install into fd_install Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 19/24] file: In f_dupfd read RLIMIT_NOFILE once Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 20/24] file: Merge __alloc_fd into alloc_fd Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 21/24] file: Rename __close_fd to close_fd and remove the files parameter Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 22/24] file: Replace ksys_close with close_fd Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 23/24] file: Rename __close_fd_get_file close_fd_get_file Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-20 23:14 ` [PATCH v2 24/24] file: Remove get_files_struct Eric W. Biederman
2020-11-21  0:05 ` [PATCH v2 00/24] exec: Move unshare_files and guarantee files_struct.count is correct Linus Torvalds
2020-11-28  5:12   ` Al Viro
2020-12-07 23:56     ` Al Viro

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