From: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>
To: Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>
Cc: Jonas Oberhauser <jonas.oberhauser@huaweicloud.com>,
Andrea Parri <parri.andrea@gmail.com>,
Jonas Oberhauser <jonas.oberhauser@huawei.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>, will <will@kernel.org>,
"boqun.feng" <boqun.feng@gmail.com>, npiggin <npiggin@gmail.com>,
dhowells <dhowells@redhat.com>, "j.alglave" <j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk>,
"luc.maranget" <luc.maranget@inria.fr>, akiyks <akiyks@gmail.com>,
dlustig <dlustig@nvidia.com>, joel <joel@joelfernandes.org>,
urezki <urezki@gmail.com>,
quic_neeraju <quic_neeraju@quicinc.com>,
frederic <frederic@kernel.org>,
Kernel development list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Internal vs. external barriers (was: Re: Interesting LKMM litmus test)
Date: Wed, 25 Jan 2023 13:38:32 -0800 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20230125213832.GQ2948950@paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <Y9GVFkVRRRs5/rBd@rowland.harvard.edu>
On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 03:46:14PM -0500, Alan Stern wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 11:46:51AM -0800, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2023 at 02:08:59PM -0500, Alan Stern wrote:
> > > Why do you want the implementation to forbid it? The pattern of the
> > > litmus test resembles 3+3W, and you don't care whether the kernel allows
> > > that pattern. Do you?
> >
> > Jonas asked a similar question, so I am answering you both here.
> >
> > With (say) a release-WRITE_ONCE() chain implementing N+2W for some
> > N, it is reasonably well known that you don't get ordering, hardware
> > support otwithstanding. After all, none of the Linux kernel, C, and C++
> > memory models make that guarantee. In addition, the non-RCU barriers
> > and accesses that you can use to create N+2W have been in very wide use
> > for a very long time.
> >
> > Although RCU has been in use for almost as long as those non-RCU barriers,
> > it has not been in wide use for anywhere near that long. So I cannot
> > be so confident in ruling out some N+2W use case for RCU.
> >
> > Such a use case could play out as follows:
> >
> > 1. They try LKMM on it, see that LKMM allows it, and therefore find
> > something else that works just as well. This is fine.
> >
> > 2. They try LKMM on it, see that LKMM allows it, but cannot find
> > something else that works just as well. They complain to us,
> > and we either show them how to get the same results some other
> > way or adjust LKMM (and perhaps the implementations) accordingly.
> > These are also fine.
> >
> > 3. They don't try LKMM on it, see that it works when they test it,
> > and they send it upstream. The use case is entangled deeply
> > enough in other code that no one spots it on review. The Linux
> > kernel unconditionally prohibits the cycle. This too is fine.
> >
> > 4. They don't try LKMM on it, see that it works when they test it,
> > and they send it upstream. The use case is entangled deeply
> > enough in other code that no one spots it on review. Because RCU
> > grace periods incur tens of microseconds of latency at a minimum,
> > all tests (almost) always pass, just due to delays and unrelated
> > accesses and memory barriers. Even in kernels built with some
> > future SRCU equivalent of CONFIG_RCU_STRICT_GRACE_PERIOD=y.
> > But the Linux kernel allows the cycle when there is a new moon
> > on Tuesday during a triple solar eclipse of Jupiter, a condition
> > that is eventually met, and at the worst possible time and place.
> >
> > This is absolutely the opposite of fine.
> >
> > I don't want to deal with #4. So this is an RCU-maintainer use case
> > that I would like to avoid. ;-)
>
> Since it is well known that the non-RCU barriers in the Linux kernel, C,
> and C++ do not enforce ordering in n+nW, and seeing as how your litmus
> test relies on an smp_store_release() at one point, I think it's
> reasonable to assume people won't expect it to provide ordering.
The presence of that grace period, which is well known to have super-heavy
ordering properties, will likely reduce the number of people whose
expectations are aligned with LKMM. :-/
Plus it is not easy to create something that meets the LKMM grace-period
requirements without also making it provide this additional ordering on
real systems.
> Ah, but what about a litmus test that relies solely on RCU?
>
> rcu_read_lock Wy=2 rcu_read_lock Wv=2
> Wx=2 synchronize_rcu Wu=2 synchronize_rcu
> Wy=1 Wu=1 Wv=1 Wx=1
> rcu_read_unlock rcu_read_unlock
>
> exists (x=2 /\ y=2 /\ u=2 /\ v=2)
>
> Luckily, this _is_ forbidden by the LKMM. So I think you're okay.
Some times I get lucky! ;-)
The reader-free counterpart of your test is also forbidden, which is no
surprise given that smp_mb() also suffices.
Thanx, Paul
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-01-25 21:38 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 161+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <20220921173109.GA1214281@paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1>
[not found] ` <YytfFiMT2Xsdwowf@rowland.harvard.edu>
[not found] ` <YywXuzZ/922LHfjI@hirez.programming.kicks-ass.net>
[not found] ` <114ECED5-FED1-4361-94F7-8D9BC02449B7>
[not found] ` <YzSAnclenTz7KQyt@rowland.harvard.edu>
[not found] ` <f763bd5ff835458d8750b61da47fe316@huawei.com>
2023-01-03 18:56 ` Internal vs. external barriers (was: Re: Interesting LKMM litmus test) Alan Stern
2023-01-04 15:37 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-04 20:58 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <ee186bc17a5e48298a5373f688496dce@huawei.com>
2023-01-05 17:32 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <bea712c82e6346f8973399a5711ff78a@huawei.com>
2023-01-11 15:06 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <768ffe7edc7f4ddfacd5b0a8e844ed84@huawei.com>
2023-01-11 17:01 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <07579baee4b84532a76ea8b0b33052bb@huawei.com>
2023-01-12 21:57 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-13 16:38 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-13 19:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <06a8aef7eb8d46bca34521a80880dae3@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 17:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <e51c82a113484b6bb62354a49376f248@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 16:42 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-17 17:48 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-17 21:19 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 11:25 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 2:28 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 11:22 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 16:41 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 18:43 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-23 16:16 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 19:58 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-23 20:06 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 20:41 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-24 13:21 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 15:54 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 17:22 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <4c1abc7733794519ad7c5153ae8b58f9@huawei.com>
2023-01-13 16:28 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-13 20:07 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-13 20:32 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 17:40 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-14 17:48 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <136d019d8c8049f6b737627df830e66f@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 17:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 18:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 19:58 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-15 5:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 20:19 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-15 5:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-15 16:23 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-15 18:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-15 20:46 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-16 4:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-16 18:11 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-16 19:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-16 19:20 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-16 22:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 11:46 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-17 15:14 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 15:56 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-17 17:43 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 18:27 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-17 18:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 20:20 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-17 20:15 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 3:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 16:50 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 19:42 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-18 20:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 20:30 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-18 21:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 21:24 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 0:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 13:39 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 18:41 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 19:51 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 21:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 22:04 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 23:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 9:43 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 15:39 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 20:46 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 21:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 22:36 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 23:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 0:03 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-21 0:34 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 3:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 9:20 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 12:34 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 12:51 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 15:32 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 20:56 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 21:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 16:14 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 17:30 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 18:15 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 18:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 10:13 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 15:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 22:21 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 16:18 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 21:41 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-21 4:38 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 17:36 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-21 18:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 19:56 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-21 20:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 21:03 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-21 23:49 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-23 11:48 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 15:55 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-23 19:40 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 20:34 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 20:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 20:54 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 21:05 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 0:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 2:19 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 11:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 16:01 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 17:58 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 18:37 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 19:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 20:36 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 21:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-22 20:32 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-23 20:16 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 2:18 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-24 4:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 11:09 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-24 14:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 15:11 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 16:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 16:39 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 17:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 19:30 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 22:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 22:35 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-24 22:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 1:54 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 2:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 13:10 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-25 15:05 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 15:34 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 17:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 17:42 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-25 19:08 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 19:46 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 20:36 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-25 21:10 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-25 21:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 20:46 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 21:38 ` Paul E. McKenney [this message]
2023-01-25 23:33 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-26 1:45 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-26 1:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-26 12:17 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-26 18:48 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-27 15:03 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-27 16:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-27 16:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 19:57 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-18 21:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 2:15 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 5:17 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 16:03 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 16:59 ` Boqun Feng
2023-01-18 17:08 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 17:41 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 19:07 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 16:55 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-14 17:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <17078dd97cb6480f9c51e27058af3197@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 17:27 ` Alan Stern
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