linux-kernel.vger.kernel.org archive mirror
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Ian Kent <raven@themaw.net>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
	Steven Whitehouse <swhiteho@redhat.com>
Cc: David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	Miklos Szeredi <miklos@szeredi.hu>,
	linux-fsdevel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>, Karel Zak <kzak@redhat.com>,
	Jeff Layton <jlayton@redhat.com>,
	Miklos Szeredi <mszeredi@redhat.com>,
	Nicolas Dichtel <nicolas.dichtel@6wind.com>,
	Christian Brauner <christian@brauner.io>,
	Lennart Poettering <lennart@poettering.net>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	LSM <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: file metadata via fs API
Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2020 11:44:54 +0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20a60b5984a7f6e3e7d351b789c0b0beedfb2653.camel@themaw.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=wgz5H-xYG4bOrHaEtY7rvFA1_6+mTSpjrgK8OsNbfF+Pw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, 2020-08-12 at 12:50 -0700, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 12:34 PM Steven Whitehouse <
> swhiteho@redhat.com> wrote:
> > The point of this is to give us the ability to monitor mounts from
> > userspace.
> 
> We haven't had that before, I don't see why it's suddenly such a big
> deal.

Because there's a trend occurring in user space where there are
frequent and persistent mount changes that cause high overhead.

I've seen the number of problems building up over the last few months
that are essentially the same problem that I wanted to resolve. And
that's related to side effects of autofs using a large number of
mounts.

The problems are real.

> 
> The notification side I understand. Polling /proc files is not the
> answer.

Yep, that's one aspect, getting the information about a mount without
reading the entire mount table seems like the sensible thing to do to
allow for a more efficient notification mechanism.

> 
> But the whole "let's design this crazy subsystem for it" seems way
> overkill. I don't see anybody caring that deeply.
> 
> It really smells like "do it because we can, not because we must".
> 
> Who the hell cares about monitoring mounts at a kHz frequencies? If
> this is for MIS use, you want a nice GUI and not wasting CPU time
> polling.

That part of the problem still remains.

The kernel sending a continuous stream of wake ups under load does
also introduce a resource problem but that's probably something to
handle in user space.

> 
> I'm starting to ignore the pull requests from David Howells, because
> by now they have had the same pattern for a couple of years now:
> esoteric new interfaces that seem overdesigned for corner-cases that
> I'm not seeing people clamoring for.
> 
> I need (a) proof this is actualyl something real users care about and
> (b) way more open discussion and implementation from multiple
> parties.
> 
> Because right now it looks like a small in-cabal of a couple of
> people
> who have wild ideas but I'm not seeing the wider use of it.
> 
> Convince me otherwise. AGAIN. This is the exact same issue I had with
> the notification queues that I really wanted actual use-cases for,
> and
> feedback from actual outside users.
> 
> I really think this is engineering for its own sake, rather than
> responding to actual user concerns.
> 
>                Linus


  reply	other threads:[~2020-08-13  3:45 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 89+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-08-03 15:27 [GIT PULL] Mount notifications David Howells
2020-08-03 15:49 ` [GIT PULL] Filesystem Information David Howells
2020-08-03 16:42   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-04  2:15     ` Ian Kent
2020-08-04 14:36       ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-05  1:33         ` Ian Kent
2020-08-05  8:00           ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-05 11:13             ` Ian Kent
2020-08-05  8:24         ` file metadata via fs API (was: [GIT PULL] Filesystem Information) Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 13:54           ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 14:08             ` Al Viro
2020-08-11 14:22               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 14:31                 ` Al Viro
     [not found]                   ` <CAAgocE07=vVKpQhG+rjEGO=NEBKZ02gjg4TRPxECAc+RKrzn=Q@mail.gmail.com>
2020-08-11 14:36                     ` Al Viro
2020-08-11 14:36                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 14:42                     ` Al Viro
2020-08-11 14:47                       ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 15:20             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-11 15:30               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 16:05                 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-11 18:49                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 19:31                     ` Lennart Poettering
2020-08-11 19:50                       ` Christian Brauner
2020-08-11 19:39                   ` Christian Brauner
2020-08-12  0:53                     ` Ian Kent
2020-08-11 15:39               ` Andy Lutomirski
2020-08-11 16:17                 ` Casey Schaufler
2020-08-11 16:30                   ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-11 20:28                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 20:36                     ` Jann Horn
2020-08-11 20:56                       ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-11 21:17                         ` Andy Lutomirski
2020-08-11 21:18                         ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-12  7:23                           ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 14:39                             ` Al Viro
2020-08-12 14:46                               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 15:08                                 ` Al Viro
2020-08-12 15:13                                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 16:33                                     ` Al Viro
2020-08-12 17:16                                       ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 17:39                                         ` Al Viro
2020-08-12 18:33                                           ` Al Viro
2020-08-12 21:30                                             ` Al Viro
2020-08-18  9:41                                               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-18  9:30                                             ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 15:22                                   ` David Howells
2020-08-11 21:20                     ` Al Viro
2020-08-11 21:35                     ` Casey Schaufler
2020-08-11 16:05               ` Al Viro
2020-08-11 16:09                 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-11 16:39                   ` Al Viro
2020-08-12 10:14               ` Karel Zak
2020-08-12 13:09                 ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 13:33                 ` David Howells
2020-08-12 13:54                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12  0:05             ` David Howells
2020-08-12  7:55               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12  8:29               ` David Howells
2020-08-12  8:37                 ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12  9:43                   ` file metadata via fs API Steven Whitehouse
2020-08-12 10:04                     ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 11:28                       ` Karel Zak
2020-08-12 12:43                         ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-13  8:52                           ` Karel Zak
2020-08-12 13:06                         ` David Howells
2020-08-13  1:01                           ` Ian Kent
2020-08-12 18:18               ` file metadata via fs API (was: [GIT PULL] Filesystem Information) Linus Torvalds
2020-08-12 19:34                 ` file metadata via fs API Steven Whitehouse
2020-08-12 19:50                   ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-13  3:44                     ` Ian Kent [this message]
2020-08-13 10:36                     ` Karel Zak
2020-08-14  7:58                     ` Lennart Poettering
2020-08-17 11:32                     ` Steven Whitehouse
2020-08-17 17:15                       ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-17 22:44                         ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-18 12:50                           ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-18 18:51                             ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-18 20:18                               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-18 20:53                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-21 13:17                                   ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-19  2:29                               ` Al Viro
2020-08-13  3:53                 ` file metadata via fs API (was: [GIT PULL] Filesystem Information) Jeffrey E Altman
2020-08-14 17:05                   ` Linus Torvalds
2020-08-18 15:01                     ` Jeffrey E Altman
2020-08-14  8:06                 ` Lennart Poettering
2020-08-12 13:54             ` David Howells
2020-08-12 14:10               ` Miklos Szeredi
2020-08-12 14:23               ` David Howells
2020-08-03 22:48 ` [GIT PULL] Mount notifications Ian Kent

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=20a60b5984a7f6e3e7d351b789c0b0beedfb2653.camel@themaw.net \
    --to=raven@themaw.net \
    --cc=christian@brauner.io \
    --cc=dhowells@redhat.com \
    --cc=jlayton@redhat.com \
    --cc=kzak@redhat.com \
    --cc=lennart@poettering.net \
    --cc=linux-api@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org \
    --cc=miklos@szeredi.hu \
    --cc=mszeredi@redhat.com \
    --cc=nicolas.dichtel@6wind.com \
    --cc=swhiteho@redhat.com \
    --cc=torvalds@linux-foundation.org \
    --cc=viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk \
    --subject='Re: file metadata via fs API' \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).