From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=3.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9D48C43381 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2019 17:38:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C639420840 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2019 17:38:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1726442AbfCGRir (ORCPT ); Thu, 7 Mar 2019 12:38:47 -0500 Received: from mout.kundenserver.de ([212.227.126.131]:44935 "EHLO mout.kundenserver.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726185AbfCGRiq (ORCPT ); Thu, 7 Mar 2019 12:38:46 -0500 Received: from [192.168.1.110] ([77.9.35.131]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue011 [212.227.15.167]) with ESMTPSA (Nemesis) id 1MKKER-1hN3e82Z7X-00Ljum; Thu, 07 Mar 2019 18:37:23 +0100 Subject: Re: [RFC] Provide in-kernel headers for making it easy to extend the kernel To: Joel Fernandes Cc: Pavel Machek , hpa@zytor.com, Daniel Colascione , Greg KH , linux-kernel , Andrew Morton , ast@kernel.org, atishp04@gmail.com, Borislav Petkov , Ingo Molnar , Jan Kara , Jonathan Corbet , karim.yaghmour@opersys.com, Kees Cook , kernel-team@android.com, "open list:DOCUMENTATION" , Manoj Rao , Masahiro Yamada , Paul McKenney , "Peter Zijlstra (Intel)" , Randy Dunlap , rostedt@goodmis.org, Thomas Gleixner , "maintainer:X86 ARCHITECTURE (32-BIT AND 64-BIT)" , yhs@fb.com References: <20190118225543.86996-1-joel@joelfernandes.org> <20190119082532.GA9004@kroah.com> <20190119162754.GC231277@google.com> <20190119232503.GA149403@google.com> <78AACAF1-8EBF-4DF3-BE94-5B14E78BA791@zytor.com> <20190120155838.GA23827@google.com> <20190306230944.GB7915@amd> <742b4797-9954-fb54-cce8-47fcad750c69@metux.net> <20190307014802.GA193359@google.com> From: "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" Organization: metux IT consult Message-ID: <226424d3-d29f-2a83-2d04-81ad4aab1be2@metux.net> Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 18:37:18 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686 on x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.2.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190307014802.GA193359@google.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:4ETAHTk3UP4TuYHqVVKcSHFKei7GUTdggkrl0NzVL7qOpavZ6zj R3QqVB+x2OnaykgLH+gyOVJtlB0pWy0HX3VekSafxXlbbd9OJ23pyV3o+wgInFddTEZnnVe fkYjRd5zWQAjtYjGoRAwt4YVK/8fqsSqKoNjKYanm6K9i0/0dYrtWMVTrCb8Jh/suWwqUcA jK0d/L5phzF4mN2Q6VLsA== X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:ahvefg0OvLo=:XEIDzNC39yIDS9QcsqrY+G d+NUU8gEUunHGQssYR7TJ5K/kw3WncyCcPOgx2P1z+MBllZejKOUHIMY04rv8Fa3gx24Qwr45 z/kcfDd70UJbxPxpkyhsgK9ojBNdYR/lhwxh2+/gHeQzXwgNyY3T+52Hofj3hnseblCyy47Aj uBr1GxoPqXZux4cuJE50N8bQrJygcZRJsT0QssJO0JrZu3uYj89PX+GLw+EG7GBf8NyI2PuaE FZNLotSwfExnPWcUu0IU+WThVqIN5po43jRzPLavNA9X8NQ5FE5vMXr1k4MRkJS/3lGp9xJJ1 R6mHEe0eKV4rJC0m1IujXQbzpj1DJ58b4dOMHdWSKtGPQ1SmurBLIVIXWtB9jXG4WQcOQAc7B Zf+6H8CNOZ+7WLBDRZspFAa1BZCO/qhI/AHSE/zCv9ealuOsYgGIVVvv54SDfQs3ZktKA1geJ xPJ5m84q5EKXsB6KuqgfuzqMIfvaY//XnPCOkIALejbLIUCbhWvZpwUYcuEsrPHs3x+03wJe+ Oy1kKOiQx+Dn3n9sIhc+Z6oGNynopEFslEIEwFU1hjWuRO0lVurZX+gGimEIVMWP++xoGxduz y5BDX06ykwejsMSENzptbhjaICMevs4t/ZU3nZwheNg6XizWcWJoNrPSZQNQYPp7UNkHeJ2/F XKVGqn0xW8SXKdGHHN6pu41iTrjh80g4r40VzcYQJ9GzsARZ1JzSuWEGxFwTccSEG/DsrnBgg EqUwEo5VquPGdcBkaA+EknfOxnK2VidUMOjnzkJvnJpHPCxkfvKAU1eoMqw= Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On 07.03.19 02:48, Joel Fernandes wrote: >> I'm confused. > > Take a look at this thread: https://lkml.org/lkml/2019/2/28/634 Okay, replying to that mail: > > > There's no linux-headers That's the first fundamental problem. Actually, there's not even any decent package management at all (no, apk seriously doesn't count as that, not if you're used to apt+frieds for over 20 years) > I have already been down that road. In the Android ecosystem, the > Android teams only provide a "userspace system image" which goes on > the system partition of the flash (and a couple other images are also > provided but system is the main one). These Android teams should learn how GNU/Linux distros and package management works for over 20 years. Really, this is pretty trivial. For such kind of general purpose devices, where users can install arbitrary applications, I'd never come to the strange idea of deploying whole operating system and applications in one image. (most likely not even initially in the factory) > The system image cannot contain GPL source code. Why exactly ? Beacuse Big Manitu said so ? Don't these folks that GPL doesn't prohibit shipping binaries on disk/flash images ? > It is also not possible to put kernel headers for every kernel version > on the system images that ship and is not practical. Of course not. They should only be deployed when needed, for the versions needed. > Android boots on 1000s of forked kernels. Next big fundamental problem. Why all these forks in the first place ? I'm not talking about the small patch queue ontop of mainline (or maybe Andoid kernel baseline) - that's something we do all the day in embedded world (of course we try to mainline as much as we can). But what I usually see from the Andoid vendors are pretty much full forks (full of horrible hacks) that quickly aren't maintained anymore. If I'd be the responsible manager @google, that'd be one of the very first things I'd care for: mainline first. (and, of course, ban all proprietary binary-only kernel modules). > Now for kernel modules, there's another image called the "vendor > image" which is flashed onto the vendor parition, this is where kernel > modules go. Okay, then why not just putting a tarball there ? --mtx -- Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult Free software and Linux embedded engineering info@metux.net -- +49-151-27565287