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From: Scott Robert Ladd <coyote@coyotegulch.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com>
Cc: Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!]
Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 20:36:35 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3EAC7793.2090505@coyotegulch.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20030427165959.GC6820@work.bitmover.com>

Larry McVoy wrote:
> There seems to be a wide spread feeling that whenever anything
> desirable comes along it is OK to take it if you want it.

Such attitudes are indicative of a "me first" society, wherein laws only 
apply if a quilty entity (person or corporation) believes they will 
suffer consequences for their actions. Recent history shows a strong 
tendancy for corporations to lie, cheat, and steal whenever they think 
they can "get away" with it; I don't see the behavior of music 
downloaders as any more or less noble than the business practices of 
Microsoft.

Many people couch their theft of IP in terms of nobility; they seem 
themselves as Robin Hoods, stealing from the rich and giving to the 
poor. I've even seen some people state that music piracy is a human 
rights issue, comparing themselves to civil rights activists. Such 
claims devalue real human rights abuses in an attempt to validate IP theft.

> The depressing thing is that it is so obvious to me that the
> corporations will win, they will protect themselves, they have the
> money to lobby the government to get the laws they want and build the
> technology they need. The more you push back the more locked up
> things will become.

And it's happened time and time again, in so many areas where personal
freedoms stand contrary to the profits of corporations. We exist in a 
feudal society, whether people wish to recognize it as such or not -- 
and right now, the Lords are corporations who have the power of law and 
force on their side.

Copyrights and patents were once sound devices for stimulating the
development and dissemination of new ideas; the advent of the modern
corporation, however, has perverted those fine concepts for selfish
goals; government incompetence has allowed the process to degenerate
into stupidity, where anyone can patent almost anything.

I doubt very much the most music pirates give a damn about the social 
implications of freedom. In my experience, those who steal IP are just 
as greedy as the corporations; they want soemthing, so they take it. 
Theft is theft, whether it's a software corporation stealing someone's 
GPL code or a college kid downloading a thousand pirated songs.

> I don't like the record companies any better than anyone else but
> they do own the material and you either respect the rules or the
> record companies will lock it up and force you to respect the rules.

I'm willing to agree that the current in-your-face tactics of the 
"free-as-in-liberty" IP movement will accomplish little or nothing in 
terms of human freedom.

That does *not* mean that it is useless to break unjust laws! Revolution 
is always involves people who foresake the rules and ignore the 
impositions of powers-that-be.

The real question is: What tactics make a revolution effective? In the 
case of "free" software and IP, I believe the current, confrontation 
tactics are both ineffective and counterproductive.

> The open source community, in my opinion, is certainly a contributing
> factor in the emergence of the DMCA and DRM efforts.
 > ...
 > "If it's useful, take it" is the attitude.

Indeed, it is. It amazes me how many students "use" code from my books 
or web site as their homework. Even more disturbign are the college 
students who insist that I provide them with free implementations of 
their homework assignments. By the gods, I've been *threatened* by some 
of these people, who are likely the same sort who buy term papers and 
doctoral thesis.

Modern society is selfish. And much of the "free" software movement is 
based on "free-as-in-beer", not "free-as-in-liberty" thinking.

> Corporations are certainly watching things like our efforts with 
> BitKeeper, as well as the other companies who are trying to play nice
>  with the open source world.  What are they learning?  That if you
> don't lock it up, the open source world has no conscience, no
> respect, and will steal anything that isn't locked down.  Show me a
> single example of the community going "no, we can't take that,
> someone else did all the work to produce it, we didn't".

And corporations do EXACTLY THE SAME THING. The evil is on both sides of 
the fence. People think that they have a "right" to steal Windows 
because Microsoft has acted unethically. Adults pass this "me first" 
attitude to their children.

> Do you think that corporations are going sit by and watch you do that
> and do nothing to stop you?  Of course they aren't, they have a
> strong self preservation instinct and they have the resources to
> apply to the problem. The DMCA, DRM, all that stuff is just the
> beginning.  You will respond with all sorts of clever hacks to get
> around it and they will respond with even more clever hacks to stop
> you.  They have both more resources and more at stake so they will
> win.

Exactly.

Stealing music, software and IP is doomed to fail in terms of 
"liberating" intellectual property.

For a long time, I was involved in a dispute over indigenous land 
rights; the opponents were multinational mining corporations. They could 
hire private "security" firms to provide "enforcement." We had 
international organizations, including the Organization of American 
States and the UN on our side; the victims won international human 
rights awards for defending their rights peacefully.

We lost. No fanfare, no laser guided bombs; we simply lost because 
people wore out. Leaders got old, people got tired of "surprise" tax 
audits, bugged phones, and death threats. The government and 
corporations imposed their will by force of money and time.

And that was a truly *noble* loss for people fighting for their heritage 
and the  purity of their land! If we couldn't win that war, how do a 
bunch of software thieves and music pirates expect to win against even 
bigger corporate opponents?

Yes, we should fight against the excess of corporate greed-- using a 
rational battle plan, founded on honest ethics and superior products.

-- 
Scott Robert Ladd
Coyote Gulch Productions (http://www.coyotegulch.com)
Professional programming for science and engineering;
Interesting and unusual bits of very free code.


  parent reply	other threads:[~2003-04-28  0:24 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 269+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-04-24  3:59 Flame Linus to a crisp! Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  4:40 ` Joel Jaeggli
2003-04-24  4:43 ` Greg KH
2003-04-24  4:57   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  5:02     ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  5:39       ` viro
2003-04-24  5:56         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-24  8:46           ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-24  9:46         ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24 10:54       ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2003-04-25  0:07         ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  4:54 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-24  5:16   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 13:08     ` Shawn
2003-04-24 20:12       ` Kenneth Johansson
2003-04-24 17:32     ` Andreas Boman
2003-04-24 17:41       ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24 19:39         ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-26 17:05       ` Riley Williams
2003-04-24  5:02 ` Mark J Roberts
2003-04-24  5:13   ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  5:15 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24  5:43   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  6:15     ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24  7:44       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:03         ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25  1:16           ` Jan Harkes
2003-04-25  1:35             ` Stan Bubrouski
2003-04-24  8:16         ` John Bradford
2003-04-24  8:31           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:59             ` John Bradford
2003-04-24  8:50           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 14:45           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 15:00             ` Jeff Garzik
2003-04-24 19:03             ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 19:32               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:22                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 20:19                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 20:35                   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:39                 ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24 21:02                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 18:58         ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 21:08           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:37             ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 21:30               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:38                 ` John Bradford
2003-04-25  3:20                   ` Shawn
2003-04-25  5:47                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-25  7:02                       ` John Bradford
2003-04-25  8:05                         ` Simple x86 Simulator (was: Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!) Steven Augart
2003-04-25 15:38                           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-25 16:10                             ` John Bradford
2003-04-25 11:44                               ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-25  8:52                         ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Helge Hafting
2003-04-25 14:03                   ` Mike Dresser
2003-04-24 21:42                 ` Russell King
2003-04-25  6:08               ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25 11:46                 ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-24 10:57     ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-24 22:51     ` Adrian Bunk
2003-04-24  7:55 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:37 ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24  8:59   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 12:52     ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24 15:37     ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 18:35       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-24 20:46         ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 20:50           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:03             ` Chris Adams
2003-04-24 22:29         ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 22:41           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:54             ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25  0:26               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:41           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 14:21           ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 16:13             ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-04-27 16:59             ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 17:04               ` Ben Collins
2003-04-27 17:34               ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 18:41                 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-27 17:35               ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 17:49                 ` Mirar
2003-04-27 23:15                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-04-27 17:59                 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 21:28                 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28  1:48                 ` rmoser
2003-04-28  9:05                   ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-28 10:44                   ` The X-Window System John Bradford
2003-04-28 14:37                     ` Herman Oosthuysen
2003-04-28 16:28                       ` uaca
2003-05-06  3:55                         ` Miles Bader
2003-04-27 18:07               ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-27 18:35               ` Chris Adams
2003-04-27 18:50                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 19:11                   ` Davide Libenzi
2003-04-27 20:13                   ` Frank van Maarseveen
2003-04-27 20:34                   ` walt
2003-04-27 21:26                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:07                   ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-27 22:32                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 22:05                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:28                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:06                           ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-28 11:03                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 18:06                           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-28  9:06                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-28 14:55                       ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 20:04                       ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-28 20:18                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 20:22                           ` Chris Adams
2003-04-28 21:24                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 21:40                               ` Roman Zippel
2003-04-28 22:13                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 22:16                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29  0:09                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29  4:07                               ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-29  5:08                                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29 16:40                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 21:45                                   ` Helge Hafting
2003-04-30  9:58                                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 15:06                                     ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29  5:59                               ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-04-29 16:41                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 14:35                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:34                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:51                   ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 23:53                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:00                       ` rmoser
     [not found]                         ` <20030428001001.GP23068@work.bitmover.com>
2003-04-28  0:19                           ` rmoser
2003-04-28  0:37                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:40                               ` rmoser
2003-04-28 11:38                   ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-29 14:21                   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:27                     ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-29 19:56                       ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 20:35                         ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-30  8:39                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27 18:47               ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-27 18:56               ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 19:20               ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-27 21:30               ` Jon Portnoy
2003-04-27 21:32               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:36                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 21:56                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:08                     ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:35                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:07               ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-28  0:36               ` Scott Robert Ladd [this message]
2003-04-28  9:57               ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-06 15:58                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 14:44                   ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-07 14:28                     ` Alan Cox
2003-05-07 21:40                     ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-05-08  0:33                       ` Kurt Wall
2003-04-28 11:26               ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-05-06 15:59                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-04-28 22:50               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:46               ` Jeffrey Souza
2003-04-29 15:16                 ` venom
2003-04-30  9:35                 ` Jamie Lokier
     [not found]             ` <20030427171007$6d24@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-04-27 20:08               ` Why DRM exists Florian Weimer
2003-04-24 19:23       ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 19:50         ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24  8:57 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-04-24  9:19   ` Russell King
2003-04-24 11:38     ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 17:46       ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 14:59   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 12:39 ` Mark Mielke
2003-04-24 15:53 ` Elladan
2003-04-24 18:31 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 23:15   ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25 11:28     ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-27  1:31       ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27  1:59         ` David Wagner
2003-04-25 14:37     ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-25 15:17       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-25 17:37       ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-26 21:59         ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-26 13:00     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:22       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-26 18:41         ` viro
2003-04-26 18:48           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-28 14:20           ` John Stoffel
2003-04-26 19:23         ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 10:35         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-28 12:12           ` Jörn Engel
2003-04-28 14:01           ` Zack Gilburd
2003-04-28 14:30             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:21   ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-26 23:34     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27  3:59     ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 20:16 ` Nils Holland
2003-04-25  4:46 ` My take on Trusted Computing and DRM Joseph Pingenot
     [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304232012400.19176-100000@home.transmeta.co m>
2003-04-27 10:52 ` Houston, I think we have a problem Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 14:41   ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:25     ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:29       ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:41         ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:54           ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28  5:17     ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28  6:15   ` Jan Harkes
2003-04-27 17:59 Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] James Bottomley
2003-04-29 14:01 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 16:39   ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 17:38     ` James Bottomley
2003-04-30  9:43       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-29 23:40   ` Robert White
2003-04-30  1:34     ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-30 10:03       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 20:37       ` Robert White
2003-04-30 20:59         ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01  9:03           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-05-01 19:49             ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01 20:27               ` Robert White
2003-05-01 23:08                 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02  0:54                   ` Robert White
2003-05-02  3:10                     ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02  3:34                       ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 13:43                       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 20:48       ` David Schwartz
2003-04-30 13:11 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 13:59 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 14:49   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 16:01   ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-30 16:53   ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-30 17:21     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 17:45       ` Jim Penny
2003-04-30 19:09       ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-30 19:58       ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-01  2:20         ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01  3:39           ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-09 11:04           ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-09 23:17             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 20:00       ` Dax Kelson
2003-05-01 11:44         ` David S. Miller
2003-05-02 19:00           ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-05-02 23:10             ` David S. Miller
2003-05-03 19:25               ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-06 11:25               ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-06 12:13                 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-09 10:59           ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-01 12:09       ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 18:01         ` Gerhard Mack
2003-04-30 14:52 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 15:20 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 15:55   ` Jeff Randall
2003-05-01 12:43     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 18:19   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:20     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:41       ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:53         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:55         ` viro
2003-04-30 20:09           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 18:58   ` Edgar Toernig
2003-04-30 22:43   ` Paul Mackerras
2003-05-01  1:03     ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01 12:27       ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 13:11       ` Jesse Pollard
2003-05-01 17:40       ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-30 15:53 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 16:21 Chuck Ebbert
2003-04-30 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 18:39 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01  3:16 Tom Lord
2003-05-01 19:06 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01 23:40 Chuck Ebbert

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