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From: Timothy Miller <miller@techsource.com>
To: Larry McVoy <lm@bitmover.com>
Cc: "Downing, Thomas" <Thomas.Downing@ipc.com>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!]
Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:19:13 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3EB013A1.9030301@techsource.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 20030430152041.GA22038@work.bitmover.com



Larry McVoy wrote:
> 
> 
> My point wasn't about theft, it was about reimplementation.
> I stand behind that point, what I've seen for more than a decade is
> reimplementation after reimplementation.  I'm not saying there is no
> value to that or that it is illegal or that there are no improvements
> (compare Unix diff to GNU diff if you want to see some imrovements).
> There is tons of value in having free versions of useful tools.
> There is also tons of value in the creation of new work.
> 


Here's my example:

Years ago, I realized that when you used malloc(), your process size 
would increase (of course), but when you used free(), your process size 
would not shrink.  This is still the case under Solaris.  I understand 
why it is the case, but I always wondered why someone didn't do 
something to improve it.  I mean, what a lazy, broken way of doing things.

Recently, I came to realize that glibc's implementation is really smart 
about it and releases free'd memory back to the system.  Wow!  What 
commercial vendor would EVER do something that intelligent?  Under 
Solaris, we had to do weird stuff involving mmap to get memory that we 
could release back to the system.  It was a pain.  glibc does it 
automatically!

Now, I have come to realize this because this 'intelligence' in glibc is 
being a major thorn in my side.  I wrote a program which relied on the 
lazy behavior, and the performance is being killed by the overhead of 
releasing the memory back to the system.  But being a thorn in my side 
doesn't make that improvement any less cool or genuinely unique to the 
open source community.

A lot of times, what you'll see from commercial vendors is a set of 
tools that work well.  But only just well enough.  They don't go out of 
their way to improve things.  They give you the same version of diff and 
the same basic functionality from libc for years and years on end.  The 
open source community says, "You know what?  This is lame.  I'm going to 
fix it and make it more useful for everyone."

More and more, people where I work are switching over to using 
GNU/Linux/x86 workstations rather than any of the alternatives, 
primarily because the development environment and the basic tools are 
just SO MUCH BETTER.  (Sure, Sun's Workshop comes with some great 
graphical tools, but who uses them?  And it's expensive anyhow.)

I mean, when will Sun, IBM, or Compaq ever start shipping tcsh or bash 
as the default shell?  Don't they realize that people make typos and 
would like to reedit the line they just typed?  Why are they still in 
the dark ages?


  parent reply	other threads:[~2003-04-30 18:04 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 150+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-04-30 14:52 Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 15:20 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 15:55   ` Jeff Randall
2003-05-01 12:43     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 18:19   ` Timothy Miller [this message]
2003-04-30 19:20     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:41       ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 19:53         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 19:55         ` viro
2003-04-30 20:09           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 20:21             ` [Pointless Waffle] " John Bradford
2003-04-30 21:00               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-30 21:57                 ` [Pointless Waffle] Re: Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to John Bradford
2003-04-30 18:58   ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Edgar Toernig
2003-04-30 22:43   ` Paul Mackerras
2003-05-01  1:03     ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01 12:27       ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 13:11       ` Jesse Pollard
2003-05-01 17:40       ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-05-01 23:40 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01 19:06 Chuck Ebbert
2003-05-01  3:16 Tom Lord
2003-04-30 18:39 Chuck Ebbert
2003-04-30 16:21 Chuck Ebbert
2003-04-30 17:24 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 15:53 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 13:11 Downing, Thomas
2003-04-30 13:59 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 14:49   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-04-30 16:01   ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-30 16:53   ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-30 17:21     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 17:45       ` Jim Penny
2003-04-30 19:09       ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-30 19:58       ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-01  2:20         ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-01  3:39           ` Nicolas Pitre
2003-05-09 11:04           ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-09 23:17             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-30 20:00       ` Dax Kelson
2003-05-01 11:44         ` David S. Miller
2003-05-02 19:00           ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-05-02 23:10             ` David S. Miller
2003-05-03 19:25               ` Larry McVoy
2003-05-06 11:25               ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-06 12:13                 ` David S. Miller
2003-05-09 10:59           ` Pavel Machek
2003-05-01 12:09       ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-01 18:01         ` Gerhard Mack
2003-04-27 17:59 James Bottomley
2003-04-29 14:01 ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 16:39   ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 17:38     ` James Bottomley
2003-04-30  9:43       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-29 23:40   ` Robert White
2003-04-30  1:34     ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-30 10:03       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 20:37       ` Robert White
2003-04-30 20:59         ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01  9:03           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-05-01 19:49             ` David Schwartz
2003-05-01 20:27               ` Robert White
2003-05-01 23:08                 ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02  0:54                   ` Robert White
2003-05-02  3:10                     ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02  3:34                       ` David Schwartz
2003-05-02 13:43                       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-30 20:48       ` David Schwartz
2003-04-24  3:59 Flame Linus to a crisp! Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  8:37 ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24  8:59   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 15:37     ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 18:35       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-24 22:29         ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 14:21           ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 16:59             ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 17:04               ` Ben Collins
2003-04-27 17:34               ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 18:41                 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-27 17:35               ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 17:49                 ` Mirar
2003-04-27 23:15                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-04-27 17:59                 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 21:28                 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28  1:48                 ` rmoser
2003-04-28  9:05                   ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 18:07               ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-27 18:35               ` Chris Adams
2003-04-27 18:50                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 19:11                   ` Davide Libenzi
2003-04-27 20:13                   ` Frank van Maarseveen
2003-04-27 20:34                   ` walt
2003-04-27 21:26                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:07                   ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-27 22:32                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 22:05                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:28                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:06                           ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-28 11:03                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 18:06                           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-28  9:06                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-28 14:55                       ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 20:04                       ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-28 20:18                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 20:22                           ` Chris Adams
2003-04-28 21:24                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 21:40                               ` Roman Zippel
2003-04-28 22:13                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 22:16                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29  0:09                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29  4:07                               ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-29  5:08                                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29 16:40                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 21:45                                   ` Helge Hafting
2003-04-30  9:58                                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 15:06                                     ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29  5:59                               ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-04-29 16:41                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 14:35                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:34                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:51                   ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 23:53                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:00                       ` rmoser
     [not found]                         ` <20030428001001.GP23068@work.bitmover.com>
2003-04-28  0:19                           ` rmoser
2003-04-28  0:37                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:40                               ` rmoser
2003-04-28 11:38                   ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-29 14:21                   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:27                     ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-29 19:56                       ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 20:35                         ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-30  8:39                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27 18:47               ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-27 18:56               ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 19:20               ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-27 21:30               ` Jon Portnoy
2003-04-27 21:32               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:36                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 21:56                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:08                     ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:35                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:07               ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-28  0:36               ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-28  9:57               ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-06 15:58                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 14:44                   ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-07 14:28                     ` Alan Cox
2003-05-07 21:40                     ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-05-08  0:33                       ` Kurt Wall
2003-04-28 11:26               ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-05-06 15:59                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-04-28 22:50               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:46               ` Jeffrey Souza
2003-04-29 15:16                 ` venom
2003-04-30  9:35                 ` Jamie Lokier

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