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* Flame Linus to a crisp!
@ 2003-04-24  3:59 Linus Torvalds
  2003-04-24  4:40 ` Joel Jaeggli
                   ` (12 more replies)
  0 siblings, 13 replies; 204+ messages in thread
From: Linus Torvalds @ 2003-04-24  3:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Kernel Mailing List


Ok, 
 there's no way to do this gracefully, so I won't even try. I'm going to 
just hunker down for some really impressive extended flaming, and my 
asbestos underwear is firmly in place, and extremely uncomfortable.

  I want to make it clear that DRM is perfectly ok with Linux!

There, I've said it. I'm out of the closet. So bring it on...

I've had some private discussions with various people about this already,
and I do realize that a lot of people want to use the kernel in some way
to just make DRM go away, at least as far as Linux is concerned. Either by
some policy decision or by extending the GPL to just not allow it.

In some ways the discussion was very similar to some of the software
patent related GPL-NG discussions from a year or so ago: "we don't like
it, and we should change the license to make it not work somehow". 

And like the software patent issue, I also don't necessarily like DRM
myself, but I still ended up feeling the same: I'm an "Oppenheimer", and I
refuse to play politics with Linux, and I think you can use Linux for
whatever you want to - which very much includes things I don't necessarily
personally approve of.

The GPL requires you to give out sources to the kernel, but it doesn't
limit what you can _do_ with the kernel. On the whole, this is just
another example of why rms calls me "just an engineer" and thinks I have
no ideals.

[ Personally, I see it as a virtue - trying to make the world a slightly
  better place _without_ trying to impose your moral values on other 
  people. You do whatever the h*ll rings your bell, I'm just an engineer 
  who wants to make the best OS possible. ]

In short, it's perfectly ok to sign a kernel image - I do it myself
indirectly every day through the kernel.org, as kernel.org will sign the
tar-balls I upload to make sure people can at least verify that they came
that way. Doing the same thing on the binary is no different: signing a
binary is a perfectly fine way to show the world that you're the one
behind it, and that _you_ trust it.

And since I can imaging signing binaries myself, I don't feel that I can
disallow anybody else doing so.

Another part of the DRM discussion is the fact that signing is only the 
first step: _acting_ on the fact whether a binary is signed or not (by 
refusing to load it, for example, or by refusing to give it a secret key) 
is required too.

But since the signature is pointless unless you _use_ it for something,
and since the decision how to use the signature is clearly outside of the
scope of the kernel itself (and thus not a "derived work" or anything like
that), I have to convince myself that not only is it clearly ok to act on
the knowledge of whather the kernel is signed or not, it's also outside of
the scope of what the GPL talks about, and thus irrelevant to the license.

That's the short and sweet of it. I wanted to bring this out in the open, 
because I know there are people who think that signed binaries are an act 
of "subversion" (or "perversion") of the GPL, and I wanted to make sure 
that people don't live under mis-apprehension that it can't be done.

I think there are many quite valid reasons to sign (and verify) your
kernel images, and while some of the uses of signing are odious, I don't
see any sane way to distinguish between "good" signers and "bad" signers.

Comments? I'd love to get some real discussion about this, but in the end 
I'm personally convinced that we have to allow it.

Btw, one thing that is clearly _not_ allowed by the GPL is hiding private
keys in the binary. You can sign the binary that is a result of the build
process, but you can _not_ make a binary that is aware of certain keys
without making those keys public - because those keys will obviously have
been part of the kernel build itself.

So don't get these two things confused - one is an external key that is
applied _to_ the kernel (ok, and outside the license), and the other one
is embedding a key _into_ the kernel (still ok, but the GPL requires that
such a key has to be made available as "source" to the kernel).

			Linus


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 204+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2003-05-08  0:25 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 204+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
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     [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.44.0304232012400.19176-100000@home.transmeta.co m>
2003-04-27 10:52 ` Houston, I think we have a problem Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 14:41   ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:25     ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:29       ` Martin J. Bligh
2003-04-27 17:41         ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-27 17:54           ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28  5:17     ` Mike Galbraith
2003-04-28  6:15   ` Jan Harkes
2003-04-24  3:59 Flame Linus to a crisp! Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  4:40 ` Joel Jaeggli
2003-04-24  4:43 ` Greg KH
2003-04-24  4:57   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  5:02     ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  5:39       ` viro
2003-04-24  5:56         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-24  8:46           ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-24  9:46         ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24 10:54       ` Felipe Alfaro Solana
2003-04-25  0:07         ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  4:54 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-24  5:16   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 13:08     ` Shawn
2003-04-24 20:12       ` Kenneth Johansson
2003-04-24 17:32     ` Andreas Boman
2003-04-24 17:41       ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24 19:39         ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-26 17:05       ` Riley Williams
2003-04-24  5:02 ` Mark J Roberts
2003-04-24  5:13   ` Clemens Schwaighofer
2003-04-24  5:15 ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24  5:43   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24  6:15     ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-24  7:44       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:03         ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25  1:16           ` Jan Harkes
2003-04-25  1:35             ` Stan Bubrouski
2003-04-24  8:16         ` John Bradford
2003-04-24  8:31           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:59             ` John Bradford
2003-04-24  8:50           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 14:45           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 15:00             ` Jeff Garzik
2003-04-24 19:03             ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 19:32               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:22                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 20:19                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 20:35                   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 19:39                 ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24 21:02                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 18:58         ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 21:08           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:37             ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 21:30               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:38                 ` John Bradford
2003-04-25  3:20                   ` Shawn
2003-04-25  5:47                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-25  7:02                       ` John Bradford
2003-04-25  8:05                         ` Simple x86 Simulator (was: Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!) Steven Augart
2003-04-25 15:38                           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-25 16:10                             ` John Bradford
2003-04-25 11:44                               ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-25  8:52                         ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Helge Hafting
2003-04-25 14:03                   ` Mike Dresser
2003-04-24 21:42                 ` Russell King
2003-04-25  6:08               ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-25 11:46                 ` Antonio Vargas
2003-04-24 10:57     ` Giuliano Pochini
2003-04-24 22:51     ` Adrian Bunk
2003-04-24  7:55 ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24  8:37 ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24  8:59   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 12:52     ` Andreas Jellinghaus
2003-04-24 15:37     ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 18:35       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-24 20:46         ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-24 20:50           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 21:03             ` Chris Adams
2003-04-24 22:29         ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 22:41           ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:54             ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25  0:26               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 22:41           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 14:21           ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 16:13             ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-04-27 16:59             ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 17:04               ` Ben Collins
2003-04-27 17:34               ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 18:41                 ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-27 17:35               ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-27 17:49                 ` Mirar
2003-04-27 23:15                   ` H. Peter Anvin
2003-04-27 17:59                 ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-27 21:28                 ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28  1:48                 ` rmoser
2003-04-28  9:05                   ` Måns Rullgård
2003-04-28 10:44                   ` The X-Window System John Bradford
2003-04-28 14:37                     ` Herman Oosthuysen
2003-04-28 16:28                       ` uaca
2003-05-06  3:55                         ` Miles Bader
2003-04-27 18:07               ` Why DRM exists [was Re: Flame Linus to a crisp!] Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-27 18:35               ` Chris Adams
2003-04-27 18:50                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 19:11                   ` Davide Libenzi
2003-04-27 20:13                   ` Frank van Maarseveen
2003-04-27 20:34                   ` walt
2003-04-27 21:26                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:07                   ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-27 22:32                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 22:05                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:28                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:06                           ` Ross Vandegrift
2003-04-28 11:03                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29 18:06                           ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-28  9:06                       ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-28 14:55                       ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 20:04                       ` Matthias Schniedermeyer
2003-04-28 20:18                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 20:22                           ` Chris Adams
2003-04-28 21:24                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28 21:40                               ` Roman Zippel
2003-04-28 22:13                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-28 22:16                           ` Alan Cox
2003-04-29  0:09                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29  4:07                               ` Dax Kelson
2003-04-29  5:08                                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-29 16:40                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 21:45                                   ` Helge Hafting
2003-04-30  9:58                                   ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-30 15:06                                     ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29  5:59                               ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-04-29 16:41                                 ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-29 14:35                               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:34                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:51                   ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 23:53                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:00                       ` rmoser
     [not found]                         ` <20030428001001.GP23068@work.bitmover.com>
2003-04-28  0:19                           ` rmoser
2003-04-28  0:37                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-28  0:40                               ` rmoser
2003-04-28 11:38                   ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-04-29 14:21                   ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:27                     ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-29 19:56                       ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 20:35                         ` Henrik Persson
2003-04-30  8:39                     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27 18:47               ` William Lee Irwin III
2003-04-27 18:56               ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27 19:20               ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-27 21:30               ` Jon Portnoy
2003-04-27 21:32               ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 22:36                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-04-27 21:56                   ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:08                     ` Matthew Kirkwood
2003-04-27 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-04-27 23:35                   ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-27 22:07               ` Matthias Andree
2003-04-28  0:36               ` Scott Robert Ladd
2003-04-28  9:57               ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-06 15:58                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 14:44                   ` Stephan von Krawczynski
2003-05-07 14:28                     ` Alan Cox
2003-05-07 21:40                     ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-05-07 22:16                       ` Alan Cox
2003-05-08  0:33                       ` Kurt Wall
2003-04-28 11:26               ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-05-06 15:59                 ` Henning P. Schmiedehausen
2003-04-28 22:50               ` Timothy Miller
2003-04-29 14:46               ` Jeffrey Souza
2003-04-29 15:16                 ` venom
2003-04-30  9:35                 ` Jamie Lokier
     [not found]             ` <20030427171007$6d24@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-04-27 20:08               ` Why DRM exists Florian Weimer
2003-04-24 19:23       ` Flame Linus to a crisp! Jamie Lokier
2003-04-24 19:50         ` Balram Adlakha
2003-04-24  8:57 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-04-24  9:19   ` Russell King
2003-04-24 11:38     ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 17:46       ` Shachar Shemesh
2003-04-24 14:59   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-24 12:39 ` Mark Mielke
2003-04-24 15:53 ` Elladan
2003-04-24 18:31 ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-24 23:15   ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-25 11:28     ` Eric W. Biederman
2003-04-27  1:31       ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-27  1:59         ` David Wagner
2003-04-25 14:37     ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-25 15:17       ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-04-25 17:37       ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-26 21:59         ` Daniel Phillips
2003-04-26 13:00     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:22       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-26 18:41         ` viro
2003-04-26 18:48           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-04-28 14:20           ` John Stoffel
2003-04-26 19:23         ` Michael Buesch
2003-04-28 10:35         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-04-28 12:12           ` Jörn Engel
2003-04-28 14:01           ` Zack Gilburd
2003-04-28 14:30             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-04-26 18:21   ` Rik van Riel
2003-04-26 23:34     ` Jamie Lokier
2003-04-27  3:59     ` Werner Almesberger
2003-04-24 20:16 ` Nils Holland
2003-04-25  4:46 ` My take on Trusted Computing and DRM Joseph Pingenot

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