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Fri, 29 May 2020 22:02:48 +0000 Received: by smtp420.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (VZM Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 20de778416897511a1a9920cd4567e13; Fri, 29 May 2020 22:02:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: clean up kernel_{read,write} & friends v2 To: Linus Torvalds , David Laight Cc: David Howells , Christoph Hellwig , Al Viro , Ian Kent , Linux Kernel Mailing List , linux-fsdevel , LSM List , NetFilter References: <20200528054043.621510-1-hch@lst.de> <22778.1590697055@warthog.procyon.org.uk> <3aea7a1c10e94ea2964fa837ae7d8fe2@AcuMS.aculab.com> From: Casey Schaufler Autocrypt: addr=casey@schaufler-ca.com; keydata= mQINBFzV9HABEAC/mmv3jeJyF7lR7QhILYg1+PeBLIMZv7KCzBSc/4ZZipoWdmr77Lel/RxQ 1PrNx0UaM5r6Hj9lJmJ9eg4s/TUBSP67mTx+tsZ1RhG78/WFf9aBe8MSXxY5cu7IUwo0J/CG vdSqACKyYPV5eoTJmnMxalu8/oVUHyPnKF3eMGgE0mKOFBUMsb2pLS/enE4QyxhcZ26jeeS6 3BaqDl1aTXGowM5BHyn7s9LEU38x/y2ffdqBjd3au2YOlvZ+XUkzoclSVfSR29bomZVVyhMB h1jTmX4Ac9QjpwsxihT8KNGvOM5CeCjQyWcW/g8LfWTzOVF9lzbx6IfEZDDoDem4+ZiPsAXC SWKBKil3npdbgb8MARPes2DpuhVm8yfkJEQQmuLYv8GPiJbwHQVLZGQAPBZSAc7IidD2zbf9 XAw1/SJGe1poxOMfuSBsfKxv9ba2i8hUR+PH7gWwkMQaQ97B1yXYxVEkpG8Y4MfE5Vd3bjJU kvQ/tOBUCw5zwyIRC9+7zr1zYi/3hk+OG8OryZ5kpILBNCo+aePeAJ44znrySarUqS69tuXd a3lMPHUJJpUpIwSKQ5UuYYkWlWwENEWSefpakFAIwY4YIBkzoJ/t+XJHE1HTaJnRk6SWpeDf CreF3+LouP4njyeLEjVIMzaEpwROsw++BX5i5vTXJB+4UApTAQARAQABtChDYXNleSBTY2hh dWZsZXIgPGNhc2V5QHNjaGF1Zmxlci1jYS5jb20+iQJUBBMBCAA+FiEEC+9tH1YyUwIQzUIe OKUVfIxDyBEFAlzV9HACGwMFCRLMAwAFCwkIBwIGFQoJCAsCBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQOKUV fIxDyBG6ag/6AiRl8yof47YOEVHlrmewbpnlBTaYNfJ5cZflNRKRX6t4bp1B2YV1whlDTpiL vNOwFkh+ZE0eI5M4x8Gw2Oiok+4Q5liA9PHTozQYF+Ia+qdL5EehfbLGoEBqklpGvG3h8JsO 7SvONJuFDgvab/U/UriDYycJwzwKZuhVtK9EMpnTtUDyP3DY+Q8h7MWsniNBLVXnh4yBIEJg SSgDn3COpZoFTPGKE+rIzioo/GJe8CTa2g+ZggJiY/myWTS3quG0FMvwvNYvZ4I2g6uxSl7n bZVqAZgqwoTAv1HSXIAn9muwZUJL03qo25PFi2gQmX15BgJKQcV5RL0GHFHRThDS3IyadOgK P2j78P8SddTN73EmsG5OoyzwZAxXfck9A512BfVESqapHurRu2qvMoUkQaW/2yCeRQwGTsFj /rr0lnOBkyC6wCmPSKXe3dT2mnD5KnCkjn7KxLqexKt4itGjJz4/ynD/qh+gL7IPbifrQtVH JI7cr0fI6Tl8V6efurk5RjtELsAlSR6fKV7hClfeDEgLpigHXGyVOsynXLr59uE+g/+InVic jKueTq7LzFd0BiduXGO5HbGyRKw4MG5DNQvC//85EWmFUnDlD3WHz7Hicg95D+2IjD2ZVXJy x3LTfKWdC8bU8am1fi+d6tVEFAe/KbUfe+stXkgmfB7pxqW5Ag0EXNX0cAEQAPIEYtPebJzT wHpKLu1/j4jQcke06Kmu5RNuj1pEje7kX5IKzQSs+CPH0NbSNGvrA4dNGcuDUTNHgb5Be9hF zVqRCEvF2j7BFbrGe9jqMBWHuWheQM8RRoa2UMwQ704mRvKr4sNPh01nKT52ASbWpBPYG3/t WbYaqfgtRmCxBnqdOx5mBJIBh9Q38i63DjQgdNcsTx2qS7HFuFyNef5LCf3jogcbmZGxG/b7 yF4OwmGsVc8ufvlKo5A9Wm+tnRjLr/9Mn9vl5Xa/tQDoPxz26+aWz7j1in7UFzAarcvqzsdM Em6S7uT+qy5jcqyuipuenDKYF/yNOVSNnsiFyQTFqCPCpFihOnuaWqfmdeUOQHCSo8fD4aRF emsuxqcsq0Jp2ODq73DOTsdFxX2ESXYoFt3Oy7QmIxeEgiHBzdKU2bruIB5OVaZ4zWF+jusM Uh+jh+44w9DZkDNjxRAA5CxPlmBIn1OOYt1tsphrHg1cH1fDLK/pDjsJZkiH8EIjhckOtGSb aoUUMMJ85nVhN1EbU/A3DkWCVFEA//Vu1+BckbSbJKE7Hl6WdW19BXOZ7v3jo1q6lWwcFYth esJfk3ZPPJXuBokrFH8kqnEQ9W2QgrjDX3et2WwZFLOoOCItWxT0/1QO4ikcef/E7HXQf/ij Dxf9HG2o5hOlMIAkJq/uLNMvABEBAAGJAjwEGAEIACYWIQQL720fVjJTAhDNQh44pRV8jEPI EQUCXNX0cAIbDAUJEswDAAAKCRA4pRV8jEPIEWkzEACKFUnpp+wIVHpckMfBqN8BE5dUbWJc GyQ7wXWajLtlPdw1nNw0Wrv+ob2RCT7qQlUo6GRLcvj9Fn5tR4hBvR6D3m8aR0AGHbcC62cq I7LjaSDP5j/em4oVL2SMgNTrXgE2w33JMGjAx9oBzkxmKUqprhJomPwmfDHMJ0t7y39Da724 oLPTkQDpJL1kuraM9TC5NyLe1+MyIxqM/8NujoJbWeQUgGjn9uxQAil7o/xSCjrWCP3kZDID vd5ZaHpdl8e1mTExQoKr4EWgaMjmD/a3hZ/j3KfTVNpM2cLfD/QwTMaC2fkK8ExMsz+rUl1H icmcmpptCwOSgwSpPY1Zfio6HvEJp7gmDwMgozMfwQuT9oxyFTxn1X3rn1IoYQF3P8gsziY5 qtTxy2RrgqQFm/hr8gM78RhP54UPltIE96VywviFzDZehMvuwzW//fxysIoK97Y/KBZZOQs+ /T+Bw80Pwk/dqQ8UmIt2ffHEgwCTbkSm711BejapWCfklxkMZDp16mkxSt2qZovboVjXnfuq wQ1QL4o4t1hviM7LyoflsCLnQFJh6RSBhBpKQinMJl/z0A6NYDkQi6vEGMDBWX/M2vk9Jvwa v0cEBfY3Z5oFgkh7BUORsu1V+Hn0fR/Lqq/Pyq+nTR26WzGDkolLsDr3IH0TiAVH5ZuPxyz6 abzjfg== Message-ID: <7b6a91a5-8c6d-044f-f675-800e0157dc39@schaufler-ca.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 2020 15:02:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Language: en-US X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.15959 hermes_yahoo Apache-HttpAsyncClient/4.1.4 (Java/11.0.6) Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On 5/29/2020 12:19 PM, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Fri, May 29, 2020 at 6:08 AM David Laight = wrote: >> A wide monitor is for looking at lots of files. > Not necessarily. > > Excessive line breaks are BAD. They cause real and every-day problems. > > They cause problems for things like "grep" both in the patterns and in > the output, since grep (and a lot of other very basic unix utilities) > is fundamentally line-based. > > So the fact is, many of us have long long since skipped the whole > "80-column terminal" model, for the same reason that we have many more > lines than 25 lines visible at a time. > > And honestly, I don't want to see patches that make the kernel reading > experience worse for me and likely for the vast majority of people, > based on the argument that some odd people have small terminal > windows. > > If you or Christoph have 80 character lines, you'll get possibly ugly > wrapped output. Tough. That's _your_ choice. Your hardware limitations > shouldn't be a pain for the rest of us. > > Longer lines are fundamentally useful. My monitor is not only a lot > wider than it is tall, my fonts are universally narrower than they are > tall. Long lines are natural. > > When I tile my terminal windows on my display, I can have 6 terminals > visible at one time, and that's because I have them three wide. And I > could still fit 80% of a fourth one side-by-side. > > And guess what? That's with my default "100x50" terminal window (go to > your gnome terminal settings, you'll find that the 80x25 thing is just > an initial default that you can change), not with some 80x25 one. And > that's with a font that has anti-aliasing and isn't some pixelated > mess. > > And most of my terminals actually end up being dragged wider and > taller than that. I checked, and my main one is 142x76 characters > right now, because it turns out that wider (and taller) terminals are > useful not just for source code. > > Have you looked at "ps ax" output lately? Or used "top"? Or done "git > diff --stat" or any number of things where it turns out that 80x25 is > really really limiting, and is simply NO LONGER RELEVANT to most of > us. > > So no. I do not care about somebody with a 80x25 terminal window > getting line wrapping. The first law of good C programming is: "Thou shalt adhere to the One True Brace Style" It extrapolates into indentation, line width, and a number of other things. Since Linux is a trademark of Linus Torvalds, you get to define what the "One Truth" is. Time to resize my terminals. > > For exactly the same reason I find it completely irrelevant if > somebody says that their kernel compile takes 10 hours because they > are doing kernel development on a Raspberry PI with 4GB of RAM. > > People with restrictive hardware shouldn't make it more inconvenient > for people who have better resources. Yes, we'll accommodate things to > within reasonable limits. But no, 80-column terminals in 2020 isn't > "reasonable" any more as far as I'm concerned. People commonly used > 132-column terminals even back in the 80's, for chrissake, don't try > to make 80 columns some immovable standard. > > If you choose to use a 80-column terminal, you can live with the line > wrapping. It's just that simple. > > And longer lines are simply useful. Part of that is that we aren't > programming in the 80's any more, and our source code is fundamentally > wider as a result. > > Yes, local iteration variables are still called 'i', because more > context just isn't helpful for some anonymous counter. Being concise > is still a good thing, and overly verbose names are not inherently > better. > > But still - it's entirely reasonable to have variable names that are > 10-15 characters and it makes the code more legible. Writing things > out instead of using abbreviations etc. > > And yes, we do use wide tabs, because that makes indentation something > you can visually see in the structure at a glance and on a > whole-function basis, rather than something you have to try to > visually "line up" things for or count spaces. > > So we have lots of fairly fundamental issues that fairly easily make > for longer lines in many circumstances. > > And yes, we do line breaks at some point. But there really isn't any > reason to make that point be 80 columns any more. > > Linus