From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.8 required=3.0 tests=HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS, MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_PASS autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C568ECDE47 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2018 22:40:30 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CECBF20883 for ; Fri, 26 Oct 2018 22:40:29 +0000 (UTC) DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org CECBF20883 Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=brown.name Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=none smtp.mailfrom=linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1728327AbeJ0HTS (ORCPT ); Sat, 27 Oct 2018 03:19:18 -0400 Received: from mx2.suse.de ([195.135.220.15]:46096 "EHLO mx1.suse.de" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-FAIL) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1726418AbeJ0HTR (ORCPT ); Sat, 27 Oct 2018 03:19:17 -0400 X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at test-mx.suse.de Received: from relay1.suse.de (unknown [195.135.220.254]) by mx1.suse.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0DEBAFC8; Fri, 26 Oct 2018 22:40:24 +0000 (UTC) From: NeilBrown To: Rainer Fiebig , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2018 09:40:13 +1100 Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman , ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Thomas Gleixner , Olof Johansson , Chris Mason , Mishi Choudhary Subject: Re: Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document In-Reply-To: References: <20181020134908.GA32218@kroah.com> <87y3ar80ac.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <2341648.lzjnUGKk1z@siriux> <877ei56579.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> Message-ID: <87o9bg49iq.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="=-=-="; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org --=-=-= Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Oct 26 2018, Rainer Fiebig wrote: > NeilBrown schrieb: >> On Thu, Oct 25 2018, Rainer Fiebig wrote: >>=20 >>> Am Montag, 22. Oktober 2018, 08:20:11 schrieb NeilBrown: >>>> On Sat, Oct 20 2018, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote: >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> As everyone knows by now, we added a new Code of Conduct to the kernel >>>>> tree a few weeks ago. >>>> >>>> I wanted to stay detached from all this, but as remaining (publicly) >>>> silent might be seen (publicly) as acquiescing, I hereby declare that: >>>> I reject, as illegitimate, this Code and the process by >>>> which it is being "developed". >>>> >>>> It is clear from the surrounding discussions that this is well outside= our >>>> core competencies. It will be flawed, it isn't what we need. >>>> >>>> I call on any other community members who reject this process to say s= o, >>>> not to remain silent. >>>> #Iobject >>>> >>>> We don't need a "Code of Conduct" nearly as much as we need "Leadership >>>> in conduct". Without the leadership, any code looks like a joke. >>>> >>> [...] >>>=20=20 >>>> I call on you, Greg: >>>> - to abandon this divisive attempt to impose a "Code of Conduct" >>>> - to revert 8a104f8b5867c68 >>> >>> Yes but this seems increasingly unlikely now. However, there may be an= =20 >>> alternative. >>> >>> Jugding by the release-message for 4.19, some people here are fans of=20 >>> Monty Python's. No wonder - as those guys are famous for being unrelent= ing=20 >>> supporters of Political Correctness. >>> >>> So one would be on the safe side if one just supplemented "Our Pledge"= =20 >>> with this: >>> >>> "Everybody has the right to be offended." >>> >>> I think, John Cleese would also welcome this.[1] >>> >>> What do you think? >>=20 >> I do think that giving certain rights to the community is a good thing: >> - the right to tell anyone that their speech is hurtful >> - the right to (patch) review by a third party. >>=20 >> I don't think the right to be offended really needs to be given. >> Yes, I know it is a joke and I do like Monty Python. I just don't think >> it is particular helpful in this context. Maybe I missed something. > > Of course it's a joke and iirc it was indeed John Cleese who made it. But= he > made it for a reason, out of concern. It has a serious core. > > The question is: what *is* helpful in this matter? > > Just saying "this is not helpful" isn't helpful either. It's a well-known > killer-phrase that has been used ad nauseam in this discussion. But an > alternative is never given. And thus it's just an other way of saying > "Eat it. And shut tf up!" You asked me what I thought, and I told you what I thought. If you think differently, you are quite welcome tell us - to explain the way in which you think the addition would be helpful. > > Not even *constructive* criticism is helpful. AFAIK I'm the only one here= who > came up with a *complete* alternative - ignored. Others provided patches = for > certain sections - ignored. Data that indicate that this may be detriment= al to > Linux - ignored. Almost anything that was provided by me or others - igno= red. From=20my perspective, providing a complete alternative is no better than what Greg did - provided a "complete" "code of conduct". Engage in discussion, present your case, make me *want* to read your document because you've shown me how it relates to me. > > What kind of community or attitude is this? This feels more like "The Wal= l" or > North Korea than an Open-Source-project. > > And what beat everything was to misuse famously politically *in*correct M= onty > Python to malign criticism of this Political-Correctness-monster. The > "People's Front" - message will forever be a prominent exhibit in "Monty > Python's Hall of Shame". And the author should be banned from laughing ab= out > MP-sketches until he recants. Perhaps one should also report this inciden= t to > the "Ministry of Silly CoCs". ;) > >> For myself, I relinquish my right to be offended. I just don't do it. >> It doesn't seem to be worth the effort. > > I don't. John Cleese is a smart guy. And he has a point. > > > OK, thanks for your reply! But I think it's time for me to move on. "Cut = your > losses", as they say. > Thanks for participating! NeilBrown > > Good luck and regards! > > Rainer Fiebig --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEG8Yp69OQ2HB7X0l6Oeye3VZigbkFAlvTl84ACgkQOeye3VZi gblcag/9Go4SFL4hRCnJsYG2C9mJEaobtSUGXVznw4rL3SoZc6DJpI5zv6PnOPpC kTZCuOSMOV9/G7OmeX/8hhzwlWIDcuJh1OJHFBVq+bEXY8DENzibWJ3gbS/uF5jK M/Jd49aANEw4GfWC7uSqGIjGPjcfeJP3NjR76CEf8KMOb3F883FG/XlUYDJkpKn2 TpOrub77OlqA859Zowb7e+3wrto3bTocXEvpDgBhYtBkJIMxi3dN+Dc8EFlwxl0K Pvl4sGhB1QiO9XwfYQmOZhob0Nw/06d7AheOFBeN2F/HwsD6WozuGyCf136596Dz G337HVe0OePYLuHgsW9pIRVR/HtpI2oieFuJE4QePALvw68tefcVBqyf2CZBdpbk 4vtWMHH1yqGsV0o3UfFIBX0h9Ko4obN43kz3e1ETqe+ljcAs0cCUSUdUEITUX8Es TwW7DBWOPm2wdMcTKzTUu+VHcrbY85bMwxV3XTUrEsFIfng26Thyo7OZhjqiCPNP PBGPo31c4oFmWMnBj9vjVqzp3rlqhZMyDrvARWcluVfGFBX9ZAAViWdzwmfqeD6N CmdvsEDHwHbP0WGjm32LPmNpD169gtu+nkcGA+/Q7eypTRmDGMAy8Gubz0/uFXE7 oO/4DIFjLP7Cpx4kk2BMVET5xwDZQHyB9V/+1VrFO0aGDbGdhe8= =fGFO -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=-=-=--