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[2001:14ba:16f8:1500::3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w14-20020a2e958e000000b002b70aff9a97sm3782450ljh.16.2023.09.06.23.33.47 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 06 Sep 2023 23:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <8b73d2d9-ebba-8f3c-4b39-e3671117acf1@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 2023 09:33:47 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.13.0 Content-Language: en-US, en-GB To: Andy Shevchenko Cc: Jonathan Cameron , Mehdi Djait , krzysztof.kozlowski+dt@linaro.org, robh+dt@kernel.org, lars@metafoo.de, linux-iio@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, devicetree@vger.kernel.org References: <20230827190732.5e2215d0@jic23-huawei> <61247547-690c-fb8b-3a45-cd60754836a7@gmail.com> <7ca3b60f-e59f-b578-7c22-48487663cfa7@gmail.com> From: Matti Vaittinen Subject: Re: [PATCH v8 6/7] iio: accel: kionix-kx022a: Add a function to retrieve number of bytes in buffer In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On 9/6/23 19:03, Andy Shevchenko wrote: > On Tue, Aug 29, 2023 at 09:33:27AM +0300, Matti Vaittinen wrote: >> On 8/28/23 13:53, Andy Shevchenko wrote: >>> On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 09:24:25AM +0300, Matti Vaittinen wrote: >>>> On 8/27/23 21:09, Jonathan Cameron wrote: > > Sorry it took a bit of time to reply on this. No problem. Autumn is approaching and darkness is falling in Finland... So, at least I am really slowing down with everything... :| > ... > >>>> I think that people who work on a driver like this should guess what this is >>>> for. >>> >>> _This_ is the result of what people always forgot to think about, i.e. newcomers. >> >> Thanks Andy. This was a good heads-up for me. I do also see the need for >> fresh blood here - we aren't getting any younger. >> >>> What _if_ the newcomer starts with this code and already being puzzled enough on >>> what the heck the function does. With all ambiguity we rise the threshold for the >>> newcomers and make the kernel project not attractive to start with >> >> I really appreciate you making a point about attracting newcomers (and there >> is no sarcasm in this statement). I however don't think we're rising the bar >> here. If a newcomer wants to work on a device-driver, the _first_ thing to >> do is to be familiar with the device. Without prior experience of this kind >> of devices it is really a must to get the data-sheet and see how the device >> operates before jumping into reading the code. I would say that after >> reading the fifo lvl description from data-sheet this should be obvious - >> and no, I don't think we should replicate the data-sheet documentation in >> the drivers for parts that aren't very peculiar. > > There are (at least?) two approaches on the contribution: > 1) generic / library wise; > 2) specific hardware wise. > > You are talking about 2), while my remark is about both. I can imagine a newcomer > who possess a hardware that looks similar to what this driver is for. Yes. I am talking about 2). And my stance is that device drivers belong to category 2). If one works with a device driver for some HW, then he/she needs to be willing to understand the hardware. Now, they > would like to write a new driver (note, that compatibility can be checked by > reading the RTL definitions, so no need to dive into the code) and use this as > a (nice) reference. With that in mind, they can read a function named > get_fifo_bytes() with not so extensive documentation nor fully self-explanatory > name. One may mistakenly though about this as a function for something that > returns FIFO capacity, but in the reality it is current amount of valid / data > bytes in the FIFO for the ongoing communication with the device. I can't avoid having a feeling that this is a very unlikely scenario. I am afraid that by requesting this type of improvements at patch series which is at v8 and has been running for half an year (and which was of a good quality to start with, especially knowing this was the author's first driver) is going to be more repulsive to the newcomers than the potential obfuscation. I don't try claiming that no-one could ever hit this trap (even if I don't see it likely). I still believe that if one does so, he/she will also get such a bug fixed without being totally discouraged - it's business as usual. I hope this does not come out as rude. I do appreciate your reviews, it's comforting to know someone looks my code with sharp eyes and points out things like the dead code in BM1390 driver! I just like the words Jonathan once spilled out: "Don't let the perfect be enemy of good" (or something along those lines). >> But the question how to attract newcomers to kernel is very valid and I >> guess that not too many of us is thinking of it. Actually, I think we should >> ask from the newcomers we have that what has been the most repulsive part of >> the work when they have contributed. > >> (besides the >>> C language which is already considered as mastodon among youngsters). >> >> I think this is at least partially the truth. However, I think that in many >> cases one of the issues goes beyond the language - many younger generation >> people I know aren't really interested in _why_ things work, they just want >> to get things working in any way they can - and nowadays when you can find a >> tutorial for pretty much anything - one really can just look up instruction >> about how a "foobar can be made to buzz" instead of trying to figure out >> what makes a "foobar to buzz" in order to make it to buzz. So, I don't blame >> people getting used to take a different approach. (Not sure this makes sense >> - don't really know how to express my thoughts about this in a clear way - >> besides, it may not even matter). > > Yeah, I share your frustration and agree that people are loosing the feel of > curiosity. Brave New World in front of us... Well, who knows how things will be working out for the new generations? Maybe they won't need the kernel in the future? Yes, I am stubbornly hanging in the past practices and values. Direction things seem to head do not always appeal to me - but perhaps it's just me? Who can say my values and practices are the right ones for new generations :) My oldest son just moved to his own home and I need to accept that young do build their own lives on different values I had. And who knows, maybe the approach of just doing things without knowing what exactly happens under the hood makes this world very good for them? But yes - I don't think it suits the kernel project at all :) This is a project of dinosaurs like us XD (DISCLAIMER: I don't know quite all young people in the world. Frankly to tell, not even 90% XD So, I am not trying to say "all young people are like this or that". I just have a feeling that certain way of thinking is more common amongst certain generations - but maybe it's just my misjudgement. Please, don't be offended). > >> Anyways, I am pretty sure that - as with any community - the way people are >> treated and how their contribution is appreciated is the key to make them >> feel good and like the work. I think that in some cases it may include >> allowing new contributors to get their code merged when it has reached "good >> enough" state - even if it was not perfect. (Sure, when things are good >> enough is subject to greater minds than me to ponder) ;) > -- Matti Vaittinen Linux kernel developer at ROHM Semiconductors Oulu Finland ~~ When things go utterly wrong vim users can always type :help! ~~