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From: Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
To: Andy Lutomirski <luto@amacapital.net>
Cc: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
	David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
	raven@themaw.net, Linux FS Devel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-block@vger.kernel.org, keyrings@vger.kernel.org,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	casey@schaufler-ca.com
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/8] Mount, FS, Block and Keyrings notifications [ver #2]
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 11:12:21 -0700
Message-ID: <8e1d19ee-d2c0-189e-d70e-5c3daa3a274a@schaufler-ca.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <15CBE0B8-2797-433B-B9D7-B059FD1B9266@amacapital.net>

On 6/5/2019 10:47 AM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>> On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:01 AM, Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/5/2019 9:04 AM, Andy Lutomirski wrote:
>>>> On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:51 AM Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com> wrote:
>>>>> On 6/5/2019 1:41 AM, David Howells wrote:
>>>>> Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I will try to explain the problem once again. If process A
>>>>>> sends a signal (writes information) to process B the kernel
>>>>>> checks that either process A has the same UID as process B
>>>>>> or that process A has privilege to override that policy.
>>>>>> Process B is passive in this access control decision, while
>>>>>> process A is active. In the event delivery case, process A
>>>>>> does something (e.g. modifies a keyring) that generates an
>>>>>> event, which is then sent to process B's event buffer.
>>>>> I think this might be the core sticking point here.  It looks like two
>>>>> different situations:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) A explicitly sends event to B (eg. signalling, sendmsg, etc.)
>>>>>
>>>>> (2) A implicitly and unknowingly sends event to B as a side effect of some
>>>>>     other action (eg. B has a watch for the event A did).
>>>>>
>>>>> The LSM treats them as the same: that is B must have MAC authorisation to send
>>>>> a message to A.
>>>> YES!
>>>>
>>>> Threat is about what you can do, not what you intend to do.
>>>>
>>>> And it would be really great if you put some thought into what
>>>> a rational model would be for UID based controls, too.
>>>>
>>>>> But there are problems with not sending the event:
>>>>>
>>>>> (1) B's internal state is then corrupt (or, at least, unknowingly invalid).
>>>> Then B is a badly written program.
>>> Either I'm misunderstanding you or I strongly disagree.
>> A program needs to be aware of the conditions under
>> which it gets event, *including the possibility that
>> it may not get an event that it's not allowed*. Do you
>> regularly write programs that go into corrupt states
>> if an open() fails? Or where read() returns less than
>> the amount of data you ask for?
> I do not regularly write programs that handle read() omitting data in the middle of a TCP stream.  I also don’t write programs that wait for processes to die and need to handle the case where a child is dead, waitid() can see it, but SIGCHLD wasn’t sent because “security”.
>
>>>  If B has
>>> authority to detect a certain action, and A has authority to perform
>>> that action, then refusing to notify B because B is somehow missing
>>> some special authorization to be notified by A is nuts.
>> You are hand-waving the notion of authority. You are assuming
>> that if A can read X and B can read X that A can write B.
> No, read it again please. I’m assuming that if A can *write* X and B can read X then A can send information to B.

That is *not* a valid assumption:

	A can write to /dev/null.
	B can read from /dev/null.
	Does not imply B can read what A wrote.
	Does not imply A can send a signal to B.

	A can send a UDP datagram to port 3343
	B can is bound to port 3343
	Does not imply the packet will be delivered


 



  reply index

Thread overview: 32+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-06-04 16:34 David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 1/8] security: Override creds in __fput() with last fputter's creds " David Howells
2019-06-04 18:15   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 2/8] General notification queue with user mmap()'able ring buffer " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 3/8] keys: Add a notification facility " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 4/8] vfs: Add a mount-notification " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 5/8] vfs: Add superblock notifications " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:36 ` [PATCH 6/8] fsinfo: Export superblock notification counter " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:36 ` [PATCH 7/8] block: Add block layer notifications " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:36 ` [PATCH 8/8] Add sample notification program " David Howells
2019-06-04 17:43 ` [RFC][PATCH 0/8] Mount, FS, Block and Keyrings notifications " Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-04 20:31   ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-04 21:05     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-04 22:03       ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05  8:41   ` David Howells
2019-06-05 14:50     ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05 16:04       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-05 17:01         ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05 17:47           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-05 18:12             ` Casey Schaufler [this message]
2019-06-05 18:25             ` Stephen Smalley
2019-06-05 19:28               ` Greg KH
2019-06-05 21:01                 ` Stephen Smalley
2019-06-05 16:56     ` Rational model for UID based controls David Howells
2019-06-05 17:40       ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05 21:06       ` David Howells
2019-06-05 17:21     ` [RFC][PATCH 0/8] Mount, FS, Block and Keyrings notifications [ver #2] David Howells
2019-06-04 20:39 ` David Howells
2019-06-04 20:57   ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]     ` <CAB9W1A0AgMYOwGx9c-TmAt=1O6Bjsr2P3Nhd=2+QV39dgw0CrA@mail.gmail.com>
2019-06-05  4:19       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-05 13:47         ` Stephen Smalley
2019-06-04 21:11   ` Casey Schaufler

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