From: Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com>
To: Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com>
Cc: Steve Grubb <sgrubb@redhat.com>,
linux-audit@redhat.com, nhorman@tuxdriver.com,
linux-api@vger.kernel.org, containers@lists.linux-foundation.org,
LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
dhowells@redhat.com, netfilter-devel@vger.kernel.org,
ebiederm@xmission.com, simo@redhat.com, netdev@vger.kernel.org,
linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, Eric Paris <eparis@parisplace.org>,
mpatel@redhat.com, Serge Hallyn <serge@hallyn.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH ghak90 V8 07/16] audit: add contid support for signalling the audit daemon
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2020 18:06:00 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAHC9VhSdDDP7Ec-w61NhGxZG5ZiekmrBCAg=Y=VJvEZcgQh46g@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200318215550.es4stkjwnefrfen2@madcap2.tricolour.ca>
On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:56 PM Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com> wrote:
> On 2020-03-18 17:42, Paul Moore wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 18, 2020 at 5:27 PM Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > On 2020-03-18 16:56, Paul Moore wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Mar 13, 2020 at 2:59 PM Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > On 2020-03-13 12:29, Paul Moore wrote:
> > > > > > On Thu, Mar 12, 2020 at 3:30 PM Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > On 2020-02-13 16:44, Paul Moore wrote:
> > > > > > > > This is a bit of a thread-hijack, and for that I apologize, but
> > > > > > > > another thought crossed my mind while thinking about this issue
> > > > > > > > further ... Once we support multiple auditd instances, including the
> > > > > > > > necessary record routing and duplication/multiple-sends (the host
> > > > > > > > always sees *everything*), we will likely need to find a way to "trim"
> > > > > > > > the audit container ID (ACID) lists we send in the records. The
> > > > > > > > auditd instance running on the host/initns will always see everything,
> > > > > > > > so it will want the full container ACID list; however an auditd
> > > > > > > > instance running inside a container really should only see the ACIDs
> > > > > > > > of any child containers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Agreed. This should be easy to check and limit, preventing an auditd
> > > > > > > from seeing any contid that is a parent of its own contid.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > For example, imagine a system where the host has containers 1 and 2,
> > > > > > > > each running an auditd instance. Inside container 1 there are
> > > > > > > > containers A and B. Inside container 2 there are containers Y and Z.
> > > > > > > > If an audit event is generated in container Z, I would expect the
> > > > > > > > host's auditd to see a ACID list of "1,Z" but container 1's auditd
> > > > > > > > should only see an ACID list of "Z". The auditd running in container
> > > > > > > > 2 should not see the record at all (that will be relatively
> > > > > > > > straightforward). Does that make sense? Do we have the record
> > > > > > > > formats properly designed to handle this without too much problem (I'm
> > > > > > > > not entirely sure we do)?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I completely agree and I believe we have record formats that are able to
> > > > > > > handle this already.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm not convinced we do. What about the cases where we have a field
> > > > > > with a list of audit container IDs? How do we handle that?
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't understand the problem. (I think you crossed your 1/2 vs
> > > > > A/B/Y/Z in your example.) ...
> > > >
> > > > It looks like I did, sorry about that.
> > > >
> > > > > ... Clarifying the example above, if as you
> > > > > suggest an event happens in container Z, the hosts's auditd would report
> > > > > Z,^2
> > > > > and the auditd in container 2 would report
> > > > > Z,^2
> > > > > but if there were another auditd running in container Z it would report
> > > > > Z
> > > > > while the auditd in container 1 or A/B would see nothing.
> > > >
> > > > Yes. My concern is how do we handle this to minimize duplicating and
> > > > rewriting the records? It isn't so much about the format, although
> > > > the format is a side effect.
> > >
> > > Are you talking about caching, or about divulging more information than
> > > necessary or even information leaks? Or even noticing that records that
> > > need to be generated to two audit daemons share the same contid field
> > > values and should be generated at the same time or information shared
> > > between them? I'd see any of these as optimizations that don't affect
> > > the api.
> >
> > Imagine a record is generated in a container which has more than one
> > auditd in it's ancestry that should receive this record, how do we
> > handle that without completely killing performance? That's my
> > concern. If you've already thought up a plan for this - excellent,
> > please share :)
>
> No, I haven't given that much thought other than the correctness and
> security issues of making sure that each audit daemon is sufficiently
> isolated to do its job but not jeopardize another audit domain. Audit
> already kills performance, according to some...
>
> We currently won't have that problem since there can only be one so far.
> Fixing and optimizing this is part of the next phase of the challenge of
> adding a second audit daemon.
>
> Let's work on correctness and reasonable efficiency for this phase and
> not focus on a problem we don't yet have. I wouldn't consider this
> incurring technical debt at this point.
I agree, one stage at a time, but the choice we make here is going to
have a significant impact on what we can do later. We need to get
this as "right" as possible; this isn't something we should dismiss
with a hand-wave as a problem for the next stage. We don't need an
implementation, but I would like to see a rough design of how we would
address this problem.
> I could see cacheing a contid string from one starting point, but it may
> be more work to search that cached string to truncate it or add to it
> when another audit daemon requests a copy of a similar string. I
> suppose every full contid string could be generated the first time it is
> used and parts of it used (start/finish) as needed but that
> search/indexing may not be worth it.
I hope we can do better than string manipulations in the kernel. I'd
much rather defer generating the ACID list (if possible), than
generating a list only to keep copying and editing it as the record is
sent.
--
paul moore
www.paul-moore.com
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-03-18 22:06 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 102+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2019-12-31 19:48 [PATCH ghak90 V8 00/16] audit: implement container identifier Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 01/16] audit: collect audit task parameters Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 02/16] audit: add container id Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:28 ` Paul Moore
2020-01-30 17:53 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 03/16] audit: read container ID of a process Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 04/16] audit: convert to contid list to check for orch/engine ownership Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:28 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-04 22:51 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-05 22:40 ` Paul Moore
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 05/16] audit: log drop of contid on exit of last task Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:28 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-04 23:02 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 06/16] audit: log container info of syscalls Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 07/16] audit: add contid support for signalling the audit daemon Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:28 ` Paul Moore
2020-01-23 16:29 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-23 17:09 ` Paul Moore
2020-01-23 20:04 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-23 21:35 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-04 23:14 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-05 22:50 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-12 22:38 ` Steve Grubb
2020-02-13 0:09 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-13 21:44 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-12 19:30 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-13 16:29 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-13 18:59 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-18 20:56 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-18 21:26 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-18 21:42 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-18 21:55 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-18 22:06 ` Paul Moore [this message]
2020-03-19 22:02 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-24 0:16 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-24 21:01 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-29 3:11 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-30 13:47 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-30 14:26 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-30 16:21 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-30 17:34 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-30 17:49 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-30 19:55 ` Paul Moore
2020-04-16 20:33 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-04-16 21:53 ` Paul Moore
2020-04-17 22:23 ` Eric W. Biederman
2020-04-22 17:24 ` Paul Moore
2020-06-08 18:03 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-06-17 21:33 ` Paul Moore
2020-06-19 15:22 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-12 20:27 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-13 16:42 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-13 16:45 ` Steve Grubb
2020-03-13 16:49 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-13 19:23 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-18 21:01 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-18 21:41 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-18 21:47 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-19 21:47 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-20 21:56 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-25 12:29 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-29 3:17 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-30 15:23 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 08/16] audit: add support for non-syscall auxiliary records Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 09/16] audit: add containerid support for user records Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 10/16] audit: add containerid filtering Richard Guy Briggs
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 11/16] audit: add support for containerid to network namespaces Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:28 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-04 23:42 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-05 22:51 ` Paul Moore
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 12/16] audit: contid check descendancy and nesting Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:29 ` Paul Moore
2020-01-23 21:02 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-23 21:47 ` Paul Moore
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 13/16] audit: track container nesting Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:29 ` Paul Moore
2020-01-30 19:27 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-05 23:05 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-05 23:50 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-13 21:49 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-12 20:51 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-13 16:47 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-14 22:42 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-17 18:28 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-03-18 21:08 ` Paul Moore
2020-01-31 14:50 ` Steve Grubb
2020-02-04 13:19 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-04 15:47 ` Steve Grubb
2020-02-04 15:52 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-04 18:12 ` Steve Grubb
2020-02-05 22:57 ` Paul Moore
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 14/16] audit: check contid depth and add limit config param Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:29 ` Paul Moore
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 15/16] audit: check contid count per netns and add config param limit Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:29 ` Paul Moore
2019-12-31 19:48 ` [PATCH ghak90 V8 16/16] audit: add capcontid to set contid outside init_user_ns Richard Guy Briggs
2020-01-22 21:29 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-05 0:39 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-05 22:56 ` Paul Moore
2020-02-06 12:51 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2020-02-13 21:58 ` Paul Moore
2020-03-12 21:58 ` Richard Guy Briggs
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