From: Nick Desaulniers <ndesaulniers@google.com>
To: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>
Cc: Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org>,
Bill Wendling <morbo@google.com>, Helge Deller <deller@gmx.de>,
Nathan Chancellor <nathan@kernel.org>,
linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-parisc@vger.kernel.org,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
Chanho Min <chanho.min@lge.com>,
Greg Kroah-Hartman <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>,
clang-built-linux <llvm@lists.linux.dev>,
"maintainer:X86 ARCHITECTURE (32-BIT AND 64-BIT)"
<x86@kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [PATCH] lib/clz_ctz.c: Fix __clzdi2() and __ctzdi2() for 32-bit kernels
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 13:13:29 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAKwvOdmmMHRtLG5447KhLMTFD=1AjZeu1m3ZKdy=jHHkG16qUw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAHk-=wgefVmehW7oFrXLYYogqfoBQaku8Qm4o3+95Xwv=he+iQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 9:25 AM Linus Torvalds
<torvalds@linux-foundation.org> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 28 Aug 2023 at 00:33, Geert Uytterhoeven <geert@linux-m68k.org> wrote:
> >
> > Several architectures (incl. x86, but excl. amd64) do build the kernel with
> > -freestanding.
> >
> > IIRC, the issue was that without that, gcc was "optimizing" calls
> > to standard functions (implemented as inline optimized assembler
> > functions) by replacing them with calls to other standard functions
> > (also implemented as inline optimized assembler functions).
>
> So using -ffreestanding is definitely the right thing to do for a
> kernel in theory. It's very much supposed to tell the compiler to not
-ffreestanding is probably a good suggestion for any embedded
platform. But given the size of the kernel, and similarities of
symbols and their semantics expected by the compiler and provided by
the kernel, I think -ffreestanding should not be set at this point for
the Linux kernel.
> assume a standard libc, and without that gcc will do various
> transformations that make sense when you "know" what libc does, but
> may not make sense in the limited library model of a kernel.
>
> So without it, gcc will do things like converting a 'printf()' call
> without any conversion characters to a much cheaper 'puts()' etc. Now,
> we often avoid that issue entirely by having our own function names
> (ie printk()), but we do tend to use the *really* core C library
> names.
>
> Anyway, it turns out that some of the things you miss out on with
> -ffreestanding are kind of important. In particular, at least gcc will
> stop some 'memcpy()' optimizations too, which ends up being pretty
> horrendous.
>
> So while -ffreestanding would be the right thing to do in theory, in
> practice it's actually pretty horrible. It's a big hammer that affects
> a lot of things, and while many of them make sense for a kernel, some
> of them are really bad. Which is why x86-64 no longer uses it.
I agree.
>
> I would actually suggest other architectures take a look if they care
> at all about code generation. In particular, look at the x86-64
> version of 'string.h' in
>
> arch/x86/include/asm/string_64.h
>
> and note the difference with the 32-bit one. The 32-bit one is the
> "this is how we used to do it" that nobody cared enough to change. The
> 64-bit one is much simpler and actually generates better code simply
> because gcc recognizes memcpy() and friends, and will then inline it
> when small etc.
>
> The *downside* is that now you have to trust the compiler to do the
> right thing. And that will depend on compiler version etc. There's a
> reason why 32-bit x86 does everything by hand: when your compiler
> history starts at gcc-1.40, things are simply *very* different from
> when you now rely on gcc-5.1 and newer...
>
> Put another way: gcc has changed, and what used to make sense probably
> doesn't make sense any more.
Yep, I think it's time to review the use of -ffreestanding in the linux kernel.
--
Thanks,
~Nick Desaulniers
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-08-28 20:14 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 20+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-08-25 19:50 [PATCH] lib/clz_ctz.c: Fix __clzdi2() and __ctzdi2() for 32-bit kernels Helge Deller
2023-08-25 20:25 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-08-25 20:43 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-08-25 21:01 ` Nick Desaulniers
2023-08-25 22:33 ` Bill Wendling
2023-08-25 22:57 ` Bill Wendling
2023-08-25 23:34 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-08-26 0:08 ` Bill Wendling
2023-08-26 0:52 ` Nick Desaulniers
2023-08-26 1:07 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-08-26 3:17 ` Fangrui Song
2023-08-28 7:33 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2023-08-28 16:24 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-08-28 20:13 ` Nick Desaulniers [this message]
2023-08-28 20:09 ` Nick Desaulniers
2023-08-28 20:08 ` Nick Desaulniers
2023-08-28 10:53 ` David Laight
2023-08-28 16:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-08-28 20:14 ` Nick Desaulniers
2023-08-28 20:10 ` Nick Desaulniers
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