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From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>
To: Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com>
Cc: David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
	Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
	Al Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
	raven@themaw.net, Linux FS Devel <linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux API <linux-api@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-block@vger.kernel.org, keyrings@vger.kernel.org,
	LSM List <linux-security-module@vger.kernel.org>,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: [RFC][PATCH 0/8] Mount, FS, Block and Keyrings notifications [ver #2]
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2019 09:04:09 -0700
Message-ID: <CALCETrVSBwHEm-1pgBXxth07PZ0XF6FD+7E25=WbiS7jxUe83A@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e4c19d1b-9827-5949-ecb8-6c3cb4648f58@schaufler-ca.com>

On Wed, Jun 5, 2019 at 7:51 AM Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com> wrote:
>
> On 6/5/2019 1:41 AM, David Howells wrote:
> > Casey Schaufler <casey@schaufler-ca.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I will try to explain the problem once again. If process A
> >> sends a signal (writes information) to process B the kernel
> >> checks that either process A has the same UID as process B
> >> or that process A has privilege to override that policy.
> >> Process B is passive in this access control decision, while
> >> process A is active. In the event delivery case, process A
> >> does something (e.g. modifies a keyring) that generates an
> >> event, which is then sent to process B's event buffer.
> > I think this might be the core sticking point here.  It looks like two
> > different situations:
> >
> >  (1) A explicitly sends event to B (eg. signalling, sendmsg, etc.)
> >
> >  (2) A implicitly and unknowingly sends event to B as a side effect of some
> >      other action (eg. B has a watch for the event A did).
> >
> > The LSM treats them as the same: that is B must have MAC authorisation to send
> > a message to A.
>
> YES!
>
> Threat is about what you can do, not what you intend to do.
>
> And it would be really great if you put some thought into what
> a rational model would be for UID based controls, too.
>
> > But there are problems with not sending the event:
> >
> >  (1) B's internal state is then corrupt (or, at least, unknowingly invalid).
>
> Then B is a badly written program.

Either I'm misunderstanding you or I strongly disagree.  If B has
authority to detect a certain action, and A has authority to perform
that action, then refusing to notify B because B is somehow missing
some special authorization to be notified by A is nuts.  This is just
introducing incorrectness into the design in support of a
not-actually-helpful security idea.

If I can read /proc/self/mounts, I can detect changes to my mount
namespace.  Giving me a faster and nicer way to do this is fine, AS
LONG AS IT ACTUALLY WORKS.  "Works" means it needs to detect all
changes.

  reply index

Thread overview: 32+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-06-04 16:34 David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 1/8] security: Override creds in __fput() with last fputter's creds " David Howells
2019-06-04 18:15   ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 2/8] General notification queue with user mmap()'able ring buffer " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 3/8] keys: Add a notification facility " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 4/8] vfs: Add a mount-notification " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:35 ` [PATCH 5/8] vfs: Add superblock notifications " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:36 ` [PATCH 6/8] fsinfo: Export superblock notification counter " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:36 ` [PATCH 7/8] block: Add block layer notifications " David Howells
2019-06-04 16:36 ` [PATCH 8/8] Add sample notification program " David Howells
2019-06-04 17:43 ` [RFC][PATCH 0/8] Mount, FS, Block and Keyrings notifications " Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-04 20:31   ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-04 21:05     ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-04 22:03       ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05  8:41   ` David Howells
2019-06-05 14:50     ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05 16:04       ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2019-06-05 17:01         ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05 17:47           ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-05 18:12             ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05 18:25             ` Stephen Smalley
2019-06-05 19:28               ` Greg KH
2019-06-05 21:01                 ` Stephen Smalley
2019-06-05 16:56     ` Rational model for UID based controls David Howells
2019-06-05 17:40       ` Casey Schaufler
2019-06-05 21:06       ` David Howells
2019-06-05 17:21     ` [RFC][PATCH 0/8] Mount, FS, Block and Keyrings notifications [ver #2] David Howells
2019-06-04 20:39 ` David Howells
2019-06-04 20:57   ` Andy Lutomirski
     [not found]     ` <CAB9W1A0AgMYOwGx9c-TmAt=1O6Bjsr2P3Nhd=2+QV39dgw0CrA@mail.gmail.com>
2019-06-05  4:19       ` Andy Lutomirski
2019-06-05 13:47         ` Stephen Smalley
2019-06-04 21:11   ` Casey Schaufler

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