From: Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>
To: "H. J. Lu" <hjl.tools@gmail.com>, Kees Cook <keescook@chromium.org>
Cc: Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
Andrew Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org>,
Yu-cheng Yu <yu-cheng.yu@intel.com>,
LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, Linux-MM <linux-mm@kvack.org>,
linux-arch <linux-arch@vger.kernel.org>, X86 ML <x86@kernel.org>,
"H. Peter Anvin" <hpa@zytor.com>, Ingo Molnar <mingo@redhat.com>,
"Shanbhogue, Vedvyas" <vedvyas.shanbhogue@intel.com>,
"Ravi V. Shankar" <ravi.v.shankar@intel.com>,
Dave Hansen <dave.hansen@linux.intel.com>,
Jonathan Corbet <corbet@lwn.net>, Oleg Nesterov <oleg@redhat.com>,
Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
mike.kravetz@oracle.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH 06/10] x86/cet: Add arch_prctl functions for shadow stack
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 15:03:48 -0700 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <CALCETrVsh5t-V1Sm88LsZE_+DS0GE_bMWbcoX3SjD6GnrB08Pw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAMe9rOrGjJf0aMnUjAP38MqvOiW3=iXGQjcUT3O=f9pE85hXaw@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 12:34 PM H.J. Lu <hjl.tools@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 11:59 AM, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> wrote:
> > On Tue, 12 Jun 2018, H.J. Lu wrote:
> >> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 9:34 AM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org> wrote:
> >> > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 9:05 AM H.J. Lu <hjl.tools@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 9:01 AM, Andy Lutomirski <luto@kernel.org> wrote:
> >> >> > On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 4:43 AM H.J. Lu <hjl.tools@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 12, 2018 at 3:03 AM, Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de> wrote:
> >> >> >> > That works for stuff which loads all libraries at start time, but what
> >> >> >> > happens if the program uses dlopen() later on? If CET is force locked and
> >> >> >> > the library is not CET enabled, it will fail.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That is to prevent disabling CET by dlopening a legacy shared library.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> > I don't see the point of trying to support CET by magic. It adds complexity
> >> >> >> > and you'll never be able to handle all corner cases correctly. dlopen() is
> >> >> >> > not even a corner case.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> That is a price we pay for security. To enable CET, especially shadow
> >> >> >> shack, the program and all of shared libraries it uses should be CET
> >> >> >> enabled. Most of programs can be enabled with CET by compiling them
> >> >> >> with -fcf-protection.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > If you charge too high a price for security, people may turn it off.
> >> >> > I think we're going to need a mode where a program says "I want to use
> >> >> > the CET, but turn it off if I dlopen an unsupported library". There
> >> >> > are programs that load binary-only plugins.
> >> >>
> >> >> You can do
> >> >>
> >> >> # export GLIBC_TUNABLES=glibc.tune.hwcaps=-SHSTK
> >> >>
> >> >> which turns off shadow stack.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > Which exactly illustrates my point. By making your security story too
> >> > absolute, you'll force people to turn it off when they don't need to.
> >> > If I'm using a fully CET-ified distro and I'm using a CET-aware
> >> > program that loads binary plugins, and I may or may not have an old
> >> > (binary-only, perhaps) plugin that doesn't support CET, then the
> >> > behavior I want is for CET to be on until I dlopen() a program that
> >> > doesn't support it. Unless there's some ABI reason why that can't be
> >> > done, but I don't think there is.
> >>
> >> We can make it opt-in via GLIBC_TUNABLES. But by default, the legacy
> >> shared object is disallowed when CET is enabled.
> >
> > That's a bad idea. Stuff has launchers which people might not be able to
> > change. So they will simply turn of CET completely or it makes them hack
> > horrible crap into init, e.g. the above export.
> >
> > Give them sane kernel options:
> >
> > cet = off, relaxed, forced
> >
> > where relaxed allows to run binary plugins. Then let dlopen() call into the
> > kernel with the filepath of the library to check for CET and that will tell
> > you whether its ok or or not and do the necessary magic in the kernel when
> > CET has to be disabled due to a !CET library/application.
> >
> > That's also making the whole thing independent of magic glibc environment
> > options and allows it to be used all over the place in the same way.
>
> This is very similar to our ARCH_CET_EXEC proposal which controls how
> CET should be enforced. But Andy thinks it is a bad idea.
>
I do think it's a bad idea to have a new piece of state that survives
across exec(). It's going to have nasty usability problems and nasty
security problems.
We may need a mode by which glibc can turn CET *back off* even after a
program had it on if it dlopens() an old binary. Or maybe there won't
be demand. I can certainly understand why the CET_LOCK feature is
there, although I think we need a way to override it using something
like ptrace(). I'm not convinced that CET_LOCK is really needed, but
someone who understand the thread model should chime in.
Kees, do you know anyone who has a good enough understanding of
usermode exploits and how they'll interact with CET?
--Andy
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2018-06-18 22:04 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 98+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2018-06-07 14:37 [PATCH 00/10] Control Flow Enforcement - Part (3) Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:37 ` [PATCH 01/10] x86/cet: User-mode shadow stack support Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 16:37 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 17:46 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 17:55 ` Dave Hansen
2018-06-07 18:23 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 11:56 ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-12 15:03 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:37 ` [PATCH 02/10] x86/cet: Introduce WRUSS instruction Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 16:40 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 16:51 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:41 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-06-07 20:31 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-11 8:17 ` Peter Zijlstra
2018-06-11 15:02 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-14 1:30 ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-14 14:43 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 03/10] x86/cet: Signal handling for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:30 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 18:58 ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-07 19:51 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 20:07 ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2018-06-07 20:57 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 12:07 ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2018-06-07 20:12 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 20:17 ` Dave Hansen
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 04/10] x86/cet: Handle thread " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:21 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 19:47 ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-07 20:53 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 14:53 ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-08 15:01 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 15:50 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 05/10] x86/cet: ELF header parsing of Control Flow Enforcement Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:38 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:40 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 06/10] x86/cet: Add arch_prctl functions for shadow stack Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:48 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:30 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 21:01 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 22:02 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-07 23:01 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 4:09 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-08 4:38 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 12:24 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-08 14:57 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 15:52 ` Cyrill Gorcunov
2018-06-08 4:22 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-08 4:35 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-08 12:17 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 10:03 ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-06-12 11:43 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 16:01 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 16:05 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 16:34 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 16:51 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-12 18:59 ` Thomas Gleixner
2018-06-12 19:34 ` H.J. Lu
2018-06-18 22:03 ` Andy Lutomirski [this message]
2018-06-19 0:52 ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19 6:40 ` Florian Weimer
2018-06-19 14:50 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19 16:44 ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19 16:59 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-19 17:07 ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19 17:20 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19 20:12 ` Kees Cook
2018-06-19 20:47 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19 22:38 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-20 0:50 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-21 23:07 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 07/10] mm: Prevent mprotect from changing " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 08/10] mm: Prevent mremap of " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:48 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:18 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 09/10] mm: Prevent madvise from changing " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 20:54 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 21:09 ` Nadav Amit
2018-06-07 21:18 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 14:38 ` [PATCH 10/10] mm: Prevent munmap and remap_file_pages of " Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-07 18:50 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-07 20:15 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 10:56 ` [PATCH 00/10] Control Flow Enforcement - Part (3) Balbir Singh
2018-06-12 15:03 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 16:00 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 16:21 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 16:31 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-12 17:24 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-12 20:15 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-14 1:07 ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-14 14:56 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-17 3:16 ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-18 21:44 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-19 8:52 ` Balbir Singh
2018-06-26 2:46 ` Jann Horn
2018-06-26 14:56 ` Yu-cheng Yu
2018-06-26 5:26 ` Andy Lutomirski
2018-06-26 14:56 ` Yu-cheng Yu
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