From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1762088AbcLVCKR (ORCPT ); Wed, 21 Dec 2016 21:10:17 -0500 Received: from mail-ua0-f179.google.com ([209.85.217.179]:36465 "EHLO mail-ua0-f179.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1760939AbcLVCKP (ORCPT ); Wed, 21 Dec 2016 21:10:15 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <17bd0c70-d2c1-165b-f5b2-252dfca404e8@stressinduktion.org> References: <20161216030328.11602-1-Jason@zx2c4.com> <20161221230216.25341-1-Jason@zx2c4.com> <20161221230216.25341-4-Jason@zx2c4.com> <17bd0c70-d2c1-165b-f5b2-252dfca404e8@stressinduktion.org> From: Andy Lutomirski Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2016 18:09:53 -0800 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [PATCH v7 3/6] random: use SipHash in place of MD5 To: Hannes Frederic Sowa Cc: "Jason A. Donenfeld" , Netdev , "kernel-hardening@lists.openwall.com" , LKML , Linux Crypto Mailing List , David Laight , Ted Tso , Eric Dumazet , Linus Torvalds , Eric Biggers , Tom Herbert , Andi Kleen , "David S. Miller" , Jean-Philippe Aumasson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 6:07 PM, Hannes Frederic Sowa wrote: > On 22.12.2016 00:42, Andy Lutomirski wrote: >> On Wed, Dec 21, 2016 at 3:02 PM, Jason A. Donenfeld wrote: >>> unsigned int get_random_int(void) >>> { >>> - __u32 *hash; >>> - unsigned int ret; >>> - >>> - if (arch_get_random_int(&ret)) >>> - return ret; >>> - >>> - hash = get_cpu_var(get_random_int_hash); >>> - >>> - hash[0] += current->pid + jiffies + random_get_entropy(); >>> - md5_transform(hash, random_int_secret); >>> - ret = hash[0]; >>> - put_cpu_var(get_random_int_hash); >>> - >>> - return ret; >>> + unsigned int arch_result; >>> + u64 result; >>> + struct random_int_secret *secret; >>> + >>> + if (arch_get_random_int(&arch_result)) >>> + return arch_result; >>> + >>> + secret = get_random_int_secret(); >>> + result = siphash_3u64(secret->chaining, jiffies, >>> + (u64)random_get_entropy() + current->pid, >>> + secret->secret); >>> + secret->chaining += result; >>> + put_cpu_var(secret); >>> + return result; >>> } >>> EXPORT_SYMBOL(get_random_int); >> >> Hmm. I haven't tried to prove anything for real. But here goes (in >> the random oracle model): >> >> Suppose I'm an attacker and I don't know the secret or the chaining >> value. Then, regardless of what the entropy is, I can't predict the >> numbers. >> >> Now suppose I do know the secret and the chaining value due to some >> leak. If I want to deduce prior outputs, I think I'm stuck: I'd need >> to find a value "result" such that prev_chaining + result = chaining >> and result = H(prev_chaining, ..., secret);. I don't think this can >> be done efficiently in the random oracle model regardless of what the >> "..." is. >> >> But, if I know the secret and chaining value, I can predict the next >> output assuming I can guess the entropy. What's worse is that, even >> if I can't guess the entropy, if I *observe* the next output then I >> can calculate the next chaining value. >> >> So this is probably good enough, and making it better is hard. Changing it to: >> >> u64 entropy = (u64)random_get_entropy() + current->pid; >> result = siphash(..., entropy, ...); >> secret->chaining += result + entropy; >> >> would reduce this problem by forcing an attacker to brute-force the >> entropy on each iteration, which is probably an improvement. >> >> To fully fix it, something like "catastrophic reseeding" would be >> needed, but that's hard to get right. > > I wonder if Ted's proposal was analyzed further in terms of performance > if get_random_int should provide cprng alike properties? > > For reference: https://lkml.org/lkml/2016/12/14/351 > > The proposal made sense to me and would completely solve the above > mentioned problem on the cost of repeatedly reseeding from the crng. > Unless I've misunderstood it, Ted's proposal causes get_random_int() to return bytes straight from urandom (effectively), which should make it very strong. And if urandom is competitively fast now, I don't see the problem. ChaCha20 is designed for speed, after all.