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From: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>
To: Hua Zhong <hzhong@cisco.com>
Cc: "'Andre Hedrick'" <andre@linux-ide.org>,
	"'Arjan van de Ven'" <arjanv@redhat.com>,
	Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu,
	"'Kendall Bennett'" <KendallB@scitechsoft.com>,
	linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: RE: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 09:42:55 -0800 (PST)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0312100923370.29676@home.osdl.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <00af01c3bf41$2db12770$d43147ab@amer.cisco.com>



On Wed, 10 Dec 2003, Hua Zhong wrote:
>
> > What has meaning for "derived work" is whether it stands on its own or
> > not, and how tightly integrated it is. If something works
> > with just one particular version of the kernel - or depends on things like
> > whether the kernel was compiled with certain options etc - then it pretty
> > clearly is very tightly integrated.
>
> Many userspace programs fall into this category too.

Absolutely.

Trust me, REAL LAWYERS WERE WORRIED about this. It wasn't just random tech
people discussing issues on a technical (or, right now, not-so-technical)
mailing list.

There's a reason for those lines at the top of the COPYING file saying
that user space is not covered, and there are literally lawyers who say it
would hold up in a court of law.

Exactly because you _can_ argue that user-space might be covered. It's an
argument that almost certainly would fail very quickly due to "documented
interfaces" and ABI issues, but it is an argument that lawyers have made,
and it's that argument that makes the disclaimer in COPYING be worth it.

In other words: even without that disclaimer of derivation, user space
would almost certainly (with a very high probability indeed) be safe from
a copyright infringement suit. Such a suit would most likely be thrown out
very early, exactly because the UNIX system call interface is clearly
extensively documented, and the Linux implementation of it has strived to
be a stable ABI for a long time.

In fact, a user program written in 1991 is actually still likely to run,
if it doesn't do a lot of special things. So user programs really are a
hell of a lot more insulated than kernel modules, which have been known to
break weekly.

Similarly, things like /proc etc are clearly intended to be ways to
interface to the kernel in user space, so there's a clear intent there
that nobody can reasonably deny (again, that intent is made _clearer_ by
the COPYING disclaimer, but it would be hard to argue against even in the
absense of that).

But even DESPITE these strong arguments that user-space clearly isn't a
derived work, and real lawyers worried, and felt much happier with the
explicit disclaimer in the COPYING file.

That should tell you something. In particular, it should tell you to be
careful: some courts have made so broad "derivative work" judgements that
it's scary - think about the "Gone With the Wind" parody (I think the
ruling was eventually overturned on First Amendment grounds, but the
point is that you should be very careful, and while source code has
the potential for First Amendment protection, binary modules sure as hell
do not).

And please note that I am _not_ arguing for those overly broad judgements:
I'm just pointing out that you should not assume that "derivative" is
something simple. If an author claims your work is derivative, you should
step very very lightly.

And I claim that binary-only kernel modules ARE derivative "by default",
by virtue of having no meaning without the kernel.

		Linus

  reply	other threads:[~2003-12-10 17:43 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 275+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-12-04 23:50 Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Paul Adams
2003-12-05  0:07 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05  2:07   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 15:57     ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05  4:23   ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05  4:42     ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05  8:23       ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05 17:19         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 18:42           ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2003-12-05  5:13     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05  5:26       ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05  6:34       ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  6:58         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 11:16           ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 13:34             ` Anders Karlsson
2003-12-05 14:03             ` Ryan Anderson
2003-12-05 16:38               ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 16:54                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-05 17:03                   ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 22:36                   ` Derek Fawcus
2003-12-05 17:34                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 17:35               ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 18:12                 ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 18:37                   ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 19:56                     ` 'Filip Van Raemdonck'
2003-12-05 20:26                       ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-06  0:08                         ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 19:55               ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 20:14                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 21:16                   ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-09  0:17                   ` Kernel 2.6-test10 on an Opteron Ananda Bhattacharya
2003-12-09 12:16                     ` Petr Sebor
2003-12-09 20:31                     ` bill davidsen
2003-12-08 15:38                 ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 14:59             ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 19:15               ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 18:44           ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:09             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 19:22               ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-10 13:52                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:18                   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:32                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:21                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 16:34                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 17:10                           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:25                             ` Chris Friesen
2003-12-10 17:58                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:56                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:02                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:08                                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:17                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:38                                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 19:15                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-11  0:50                                         ` Driver API (was Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?) Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-11  4:01                                           ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-11 15:47                                             ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-11 22:47                                               ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-11 10:06                                           ` viro
2003-12-11 12:47                                             ` Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-11 13:33                                               ` viro
2003-12-11 14:54                                                 ` Hannu Savolainen
2003-12-10 18:37                                   ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-12-10 19:51                                 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 20:09                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11  1:24                               ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11  7:43                               ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11  8:11                                 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11  8:37                                   ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 18:22                                     ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11 21:20                                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 21:59                                       ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 22:42                                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  5:39                                           ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12  7:21                                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  7:39                                               ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12  7:56                                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  9:27                                                   ` Rob Landley
2003-12-10 18:14                             ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 18:21                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 19:48                             ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11  7:32                           ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 14:03                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-10 22:49                         ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-10 17:15                     ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 17:42                       ` Linus Torvalds [this message]
2003-12-10 19:32                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 22:43                           ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-10 22:49                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:11                           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 23:24                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:48                         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 21:15                           ` viro
2003-12-10 22:36                             ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 23:13                               ` viro
2003-12-11 15:29                               ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-11 18:47                                 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11 18:55                                   ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 22:18                                   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 22:18                           ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 22:25                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:38                             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-11  1:03                               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-11 14:46                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 23:39                             ` Andrea Arcangeli
2003-12-11 17:44                             ` Robin Rosenberg
2003-12-11 17:56                               ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-11 18:16                                 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 18:50                                 ` Mihai RUSU
2003-12-11 18:37                               ` David Schwartz
2003-12-11 12:04                         ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 17:49                       ` Jörn Engel
2003-12-10 18:16                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 19:25               ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:26             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 15:50         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 18:44         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-06  0:02           ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-05 18:44       ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:16       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:02         ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 20:37           ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-11 16:26             ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 13:52   ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-05  0:09 ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-05 10:55   ` Russell King
2003-12-05  0:46 ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  0:58   ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2003-12-05  1:03     ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  1:21       ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-05  1:30         ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05  1:58         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  3:00           ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  4:39             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  5:14               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  5:48                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06 17:14                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 15:38                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 16:47                   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-06 21:30                   ` David Schwartz
2003-12-06 21:42                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-07 13:01               ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-07 22:11                 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-06 14:13             ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-06 17:50               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 21:19                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 21:45                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-08 16:34                 ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 12:37           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-11 12:42             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 12:58               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-12 20:26                 ` Brian Beattie
2003-12-13 12:03                   ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-13 15:04                     ` jeff millar
2003-12-13 17:27                     ` Gene Heskett
2003-12-14  0:51                     ` Linux, Inc. (Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?) Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14  1:06                       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14  2:40                         ` David S. Miller
2003-12-14  2:37                           ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-14  6:55                         ` Rob Landley
2003-12-14  6:35                       ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 13:54             ` Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 15:12               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-05  3:58         ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05  1:58   ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  4:58     ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  6:34       ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  6:43         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05  2:07   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05  7:39     ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05  1:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 12:57   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:14     ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:25       ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:58         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 19:40     ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-12 22:08       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 23:06         ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 23:43         ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-15 18:01     ` Adam Sampson
2003-12-15 21:12       ` Andre Hedrick
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2003-12-18  9:12 Randy Zagar
2003-12-18  9:51 ` Thorsten Glaser
2003-12-18  9:55 ` Daniel Newby
2003-12-18 14:24 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-19  7:56 ` Andre Hedrick
     [not found] <fa.go3ahvi.h68o2q@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found] ` <fa.nk4vl6d.g0181@ifi.uio.no>
2003-12-12  3:03   ` walt
2003-12-10 19:06 Manfred Spraul
2003-12-09  6:20 Paul Zimmerman
2003-12-09 13:22 ` Andrew Walrond
2003-12-09 14:12   ` Dale Whitchurch
2003-12-09 20:47     ` bill davidsen
2003-12-09 23:47     ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 14:30     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 14:17 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 16:10   ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-10 17:58   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 15:01     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-07  2:34 gary ng
2003-12-08 16:08 ` Alex Bennee
2003-12-08 16:26   ` gary ng
2003-12-06 12:31 Matt
2003-12-05 22:43 gary ng
2003-12-05 23:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  0:07   ` gary ng
     [not found] <732BE51FE9901143AE04411A11CC465602F155F3@evtexc02.tc.fluke.com>
2003-12-05 17:05 ` David Dyck
2003-12-05 18:51   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 11:35 Adam J. Richter
2003-12-05 11:25 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 15:36   ` Valdis.Kletnieks
     [not found] <YPep.5Y5.21@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <Z3AK-Qw-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-12-04 17:05   ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-04 17:57     ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05 11:11     ` Helge Hafting
2003-12-05 12:12       ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05 14:51         ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-03 23:22 Jason Kingsland
2003-12-03 22:58 Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-12-03 21:31 Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 21:47 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-03 23:33   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 22:11 ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-03 23:33   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 23:40   ` bill davidsen
2003-12-04  0:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04  0:23   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04  6:25     ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-06  0:08       ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06  2:28         ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  9:55           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06 10:51             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-08 18:58         ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-09 20:26           ` bill davidsen
2003-12-09 21:46             ` Craig Milo Rogers
2003-12-12 11:36               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 15:27                 ` Bill Davidsen
2003-12-10 14:09         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 14:25           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 14:46             ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:05               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 15:11                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:49                   ` Aron Rubin
2003-12-10 15:59                   ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 16:06                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:22                       ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 18:38                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-04 19:24     ` viro
2003-12-13  0:11       ` Nix
2003-12-13  0:25         ` viro
2003-12-13 15:01           ` Nix
2003-12-04  0:29   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-04  0:52   ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04  1:47     ` David Lang
2003-12-04  1:20       ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04  4:48       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-04 15:21   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-04 15:58     ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05  1:58     ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  2:43       ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 13:09         ` Pat Erley
2003-12-05 18:44         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:06         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 13:49       ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-10 13:43         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 16:07           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:33             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:20               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 20:15                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:04                   ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 21:05                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:17                       ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 22:59                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11  0:58                           ` Rob Love
2003-12-11 10:56                           ` Xavier Bestel
2003-12-11  7:26             ` Rob Landley
2003-12-05 17:29   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 17:50     ` Linus Torvalds

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