From: "Maciej W. Rozycki" <macro@linux-mips.org>
To: Adam Borowski <kilobyte@angband.pl>
Cc: "Pavel Machek" <pavel@ucw.cz>,
"Linus Torvalds" <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
"Randy Dunlap" <rdunlap@infradead.org>,
LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
"linux-doc@vger.kernel.org" <linux-doc@vger.kernel.org>,
"Greg Kroah-Hartman" <gregkh@linuxfoundation.org>,
"Daniel Vetter" <daniel@ffwll.ch>,
"Yuan Ming" <yuanmingbuaa@gmail.com>, "Willy Tarreau" <w@1wt.eu>,
"Bartlomiej Zolnierkiewicz" <b.zolnierkie@samsung.com>,
"NopNop Nop" <nopitydays@gmail.com>,
张云海 <zhangyunhai@nsfocus.com>,
"Andy Lutomirski" <luto@amacapital.net>
Subject: Re: fbcon: remove soft scrollback code (missing Doc. patch)
Date: Wed, 30 Sep 2020 22:29:36 +0100 (BST) [thread overview]
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.21.2009302216230.333514@eddie.linux-mips.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200918102750.GA27828@angband.pl>
On Fri, 18 Sep 2020, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > > Note that scrollback hasn't actually gone away entirely - the original
> > > scrollback supported by _hardware_ still exists.
> > >
> > > Of course, that's really just the old-fashioned text VGA console, but
> > > that one actually scrolls not by moving any bytes around, but by
> > > moving the screen start address. And the scrollback similarly isn't
> > > about any software buffering, but about the ability of moving back
> > > that screen start address.
>
> > Could we pause this madness? Scrollback is still useful. I needed it
> > today... it was too small, so command results I was looking for
> > already scrolled away, but... life will be really painful with 0 scrollback.
> >
> > You'll need it, too... as soon as you get oops and will want to see
> > errors just prior to that oops.
>
> I concur -- this a serious usability regression for regular users. Linus:
> you have a serial cable on your main dev machine, so do I, but hardly any
> regular people do -- that's restricted to mostly IPMI and such.
>
> And without some kind of scrollback, there's no way of knowing why eg.
> your rootfs failed to mount (there was some oops, but its reason was at
> the beginning...). Or, any other problem the user would be able to solve,
> or pass the error messages to someone more knowledgeable.
>
> I also wonder why did you choose to remove softscrollback which is actually
> useful, yet leave hardscrollback which doesn't come to use on any
> non-ancient hardware:
> * on !x86 there's no vgacon at all
> * on x86, in-tree drivers for GPUs by Intel, nVidia and AMD (others are
> dead) default to switching away from vgacon
> * EFI wants its own earlycon
> ... thus, the only niche left is nVidia proprietary drivers which, the last
> time I looked, still used CGA text mode.
For the record I keep using the console scrollback all the time, and FWIW
I have gone through all the hoops required to keep using VGA hardware
emulation and its console text mode with my most recent laptop, which is a
ThinkPad P51; no longer manufactured, but still hardly an obsolete device
by today's standards I believe. Sadly this video adapter setup has its
shortcomings which used not to be there with my older hardware, which I
find a functional regression to be blamed on the manufacturer, but I have
learnt to live with that as I found no alternative I would find
comfortable to work with.
So no, it's not that nobody uses that stuff anymore, and not with
obsolete hardware either.
Maciej
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-09-30 21:29 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 23+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <git-mailbomb-linux-master-50145474f6ef4a9c19205b173da6264a644c7489@kernel.org>
2020-09-15 1:18 ` fbcon: remove soft scrollback code (missing Doc. patch) Randy Dunlap
2020-09-15 1:28 ` Bhaskar Chowdhury
2020-09-15 1:30 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-09-15 1:34 ` Randy Dunlap
2020-09-15 1:28 ` Linus Torvalds
2020-09-16 20:54 ` Pavel Machek
2020-09-18 10:27 ` Adam Borowski
2020-09-30 21:29 ` Maciej W. Rozycki [this message]
2021-01-08 19:01 ` Phillip Susi
2021-01-08 23:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2021-01-12 15:00 ` Phillip Susi
2021-01-12 16:11 ` Greg Kroah-Hartman
2021-01-12 15:57 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-01-14 15:56 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-14 16:11 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-01-15 8:06 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-02-03 8:03 ` Thomas Zimmermann
2021-01-22 18:55 ` Phillip Susi
2021-01-25 15:39 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-02-02 14:18 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-02-02 15:13 ` Phillip Susi
2021-02-02 15:23 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-01-14 17:43 ` fbcon: remove soft scrollback code Alan Mackenzie
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