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From: davidsen@tmr.com (bill davidsen)
To: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: Linux GPL and binary module exception clause?
Date: 9 Dec 2003 20:26:12 GMT	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <br5b54$nbj$1@gatekeeper.tmr.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 3FD4C9C8.6040709@opersys.com

In article <3FD4C9C8.6040709@opersys.com>,
Karim Yaghmour  <karim@opersys.com> wrote:
| 
| David Woodhouse wrote:
| > So you have a loadable module made of two sections; a GPL'd wrapper
| > layer clearly based on the kernel, and your original driver. The latter
| > is clearly an identifiable section of that compound work which is _not_
| > derived from Linux and which can reasonably be considered an independent
| > and separate work in itself.
| 
| I didn't exactly specify how the interfacing would be done because that's
| besides the point I'm trying to make (in fact, it's the later part of my
| email which was most important). But here's two other ways to do it just
| for the sake of discussion:
| a) Hard-wired assembly in the driver that calls on the appropriate address
| with the proper structure offsets etc. No headers used here.

Well, the addresses and offset specs came from *somewhere*, and I would
love to hear someone argue that they "just seemed like good values," or
that reading the header file and then using absolute numbers isn't
derivative.

| b) User-space interrupt callbacks. Start app -> mlockall -> open GPL
| driver -> use ioctl to pass callback address -> open /dev/mem -> ...
| I've skipped a few things, but the essentials are there. Basically, you
| get the interrupts in user-space and can access whatever you want through
| /dev/mem.
| 
| Sure the above isn't as powerful as a properly coded driver for Linux,
| but it should work for a few things.

And people who would do this so they can violate the spirit of the GPL
without violating the language would sue if someone reverse engineered
their secret code...

| 
| > The GPL and its terms do not apply to that section when you distribute
| > it as a separate work.
| 
| Right, but my argument has little to do with the GPL. In fact, as I
| said before (http://www.embeddedtux.org/pipermail/etux/2003-October/000415.html),
| I don't personally think the GPL has all the answers to this issue. Not
| just that, but I don't really see myself debating with any kernel developer
| what the law says he has the right to do or not do with his code. It just
| seems to me that the copyright holder has the upper hand here. What I'm
| really looking for is to understand how to apply the GPL to binary-only
| modules given the copyright holders' interpretation. So far, I have heard
| the following (this is a summary, so please correct me if you think I've
| miss-characterized your take on this):
| 
| Linus Torvalds: modules API not a GPL barrier, must prove your work is not a
| derived work - preexisted Linux. Ex.: NVidia is clearly not a derived work.
| Alan Cox: Unclear if Linus can dictate terms for binary-only modules since
| he's not the only copyright owner. Talk to your lawyer.
| Russell King: Linus isn't the only copyright owner and hence can't change
| the terms outright.
| Theodore Ts'o: Modules API constitutes license barrier.
| David Woodhouse: There's no such barrier and applications tightly packaged
| with the kernel (i.e. embedded systems) _may_ be subject to derived work
| clauses of the GPL.
| etc.
| 
| Frankly, I don't know what to make of all this. I wish I could collect the
| input of all kernel developers to come up with a table of X owns N% of
| kernel copyright and his statement about binary-only modules is best
| characterized as A, B, C, or D, or ... where each of these is an already
| stated position about such modules. We could then come up with a weighed
| percentage of validity for each of A, B, C, ... The exercise may not have
| any legal weight, especially since as Linus stated a judge may just give
| him more credence than any other kernel developer, but it would at least
| tell kernel developers where they all stand on this issue.
| 
| As it stands now, however, it seems to me that any kernel developer
| attempting to enforce the GPL across the modules API would have quite a
| few problems. Mainly because:
| 1) There is no clear consensus among the copyright holders as to how
| the GPL is to be interpreted across the modules API.
| 2) Established technical practice has been that hardware manufacturers
| do indeed ship drivers with different licenses than those of the host
| OS.
| 
| I had mentioned #2 elsewhere before
| (http://www.embeddedtux.org/pipermail/etux/2003-October/000415.html) and
| it has been discussed in this thread by other folks in slightly different
| words. However, it may be that #1 could end up causing the most damage in
| the case where a kernel developer, or a few, try to prosecute a real case
| of binary-only module infringement on the GPL.
| 
| In sum, I agree with Jonathan Corbet's assessment that it's about time
| that kernel developers agree where the axe falls. Not just for outsiders,
| but also for themselves.

I don't think the opinion of the copyright holders counts a bit, the
text of the license and the opinion of a court count. And based on
asking a total of one lawyer, any Linux user has standing to sue because
(if) the copyright infringement interferes with the user's right to use
the software. I report that opinion without defending it, the lawyer was
unwilling to be named.

| Cheers,
| 
| Karim
| -- 
| Author, Speaker, Developer, Consultant
| Pushing Embedded and Real-Time Linux Systems Beyond the Limits
| http://www.opersys.com || karim@opersys.com || 514-812-4145
-- 
bill davidsen <davidsen@tmr.com>
  CTO, TMR Associates, Inc
Doing interesting things with little computers since 1979.

  reply	other threads:[~2003-12-09 20:39 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 258+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-12-03 21:31 Linux GPL and binary module exception clause? Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 21:47 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-03 23:33   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 22:11 ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-03 23:33   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-03 23:40   ` bill davidsen
2003-12-04  0:00 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04  0:23   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-04  6:25     ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-06  0:08       ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06  2:28         ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  9:55           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-06 10:51             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-08 18:58         ` Karim Yaghmour
2003-12-09 20:26           ` bill davidsen [this message]
2003-12-09 21:46             ` Craig Milo Rogers
2003-12-12 11:36               ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 15:27                 ` Bill Davidsen
2003-12-10 14:09         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 14:25           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 14:46             ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:05               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 15:11                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 15:49                   ` Aron Rubin
2003-12-10 15:59                   ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 16:06                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:22                       ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 18:38                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-04 19:24     ` viro
2003-12-13  0:11       ` Nix
2003-12-13  0:25         ` viro
2003-12-13 15:01           ` Nix
2003-12-04  0:29   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-04  0:52   ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04  1:47     ` David Lang
2003-12-04  1:20       ` Aaron Smith
2003-12-04  4:48       ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-04 15:21   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-04 15:58     ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05  1:58     ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  2:43       ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 13:09         ` Pat Erley
2003-12-05 18:44         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:06         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 13:49       ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-10 13:43         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 16:07           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:33             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:20               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 20:15                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:04                   ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 21:05                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 21:17                       ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 22:59                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11  0:58                           ` Rob Love
2003-12-11 10:56                           ` Xavier Bestel
2003-12-11  7:26             ` Rob Landley
2003-12-05 17:29   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05 17:50     ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-03 22:58 Xose Vazquez Perez
2003-12-03 23:22 Jason Kingsland
     [not found] <YPep.5Y5.21@gated-at.bofh.it>
     [not found] ` <Z3AK-Qw-13@gated-at.bofh.it>
2003-12-04 17:05   ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-04 17:57     ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05 11:11     ` Helge Hafting
2003-12-05 12:12       ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05 14:51         ` Ihar 'Philips' Filipau
2003-12-04 23:50 Paul Adams
2003-12-05  0:07 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05  2:07   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 15:57     ` Thierry Vignaud
2003-12-05  4:23   ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05  4:42     ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-05  8:23       ` Peter Chubb
2003-12-05 17:19         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 18:42           ` Jeremy Fitzhardinge
2003-12-05  5:13     ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05  5:26       ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05  6:34       ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  6:58         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 11:16           ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 13:34             ` Anders Karlsson
2003-12-05 14:03             ` Ryan Anderson
2003-12-05 16:38               ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 16:54                 ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-05 17:03                   ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-05 22:36                   ` Derek Fawcus
2003-12-05 17:34                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 17:35               ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 18:12                 ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 18:37                   ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05 19:56                     ` 'Filip Van Raemdonck'
2003-12-05 20:26                       ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-06  0:08                         ` Filip Van Raemdonck
2003-12-05 19:55               ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 20:14                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 21:16                   ` Shawn Willden
2003-12-08 15:38                 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 14:59             ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 19:15               ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 18:44           ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:09             ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 19:22               ` Arjan van de Ven
2003-12-10 13:52                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:18                   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:32                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 16:21                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 16:34                         ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 17:10                           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:25                             ` Chris Friesen
2003-12-10 17:58                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 17:56                             ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:02                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:08                                 ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:17                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:38                                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 19:15                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 18:37                                   ` Jan-Benedict Glaw
2003-12-10 19:51                                 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 20:09                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11  1:24                               ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11  7:43                               ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11  8:11                                 ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11  8:37                                   ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 18:22                                     ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-11 21:20                                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 21:59                                       ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 22:42                                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  5:39                                           ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12  7:21                                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  7:39                                               ` Rob Landley
2003-12-12  7:56                                                 ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12  9:27                                                   ` Rob Landley
2003-12-10 18:14                             ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 18:21                               ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 19:48                             ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11  7:32                           ` Rob Landley
2003-12-11 14:03                             ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2003-12-10 22:49                         ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-10 17:15                     ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-10 17:42                       ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 19:32                         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 22:43                           ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-10 22:49                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:11                           ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 23:24                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 19:48                         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 21:15                           ` viro
2003-12-10 22:36                             ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 23:13                               ` viro
2003-12-11 15:29                               ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-11 18:47                                 ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-11 18:55                                   ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 22:18                                   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 22:18                           ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 22:25                             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 23:38                             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-11  1:03                               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-11 14:46                                 ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-10 23:39                             ` Andrea Arcangeli
2003-12-11 17:44                             ` Robin Rosenberg
2003-12-11 17:56                               ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-11 18:16                                 ` Nick Piggin
2003-12-11 18:50                                 ` Mihai RUSU
2003-12-11 18:37                               ` David Schwartz
2003-12-11 12:04                         ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-10 17:49                       ` Jörn Engel
2003-12-10 18:16                     ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 19:25               ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05 19:26             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05 15:50         ` Valdis.Kletnieks
2003-12-05 18:44         ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-06  0:02           ` Maciej Zenczykowski
2003-12-05 18:44       ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-10 13:16       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:02         ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 20:37           ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-11 16:26             ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 13:52   ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-05  0:09 ` Oliver Hunt
2003-12-05 10:55   ` Russell King
2003-12-05  0:46 ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  0:58   ` Zwane Mwaikambo
2003-12-05  1:03     ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  1:21       ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-05  1:30         ` Hua Zhong
2003-12-05  1:58         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  3:00           ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  4:39             ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  5:14               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06  5:48                 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06 17:14                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 15:38                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 16:47                   ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-06 21:30                   ` David Schwartz
2003-12-06 21:42                     ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-07 13:01               ` Ingo Molnar
2003-12-07 22:11                 ` Rob Landley
2003-12-06 14:13             ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-06 17:50               ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-06 21:19                 ` Theodore Ts'o
2003-12-06 21:45                   ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-08 16:34                 ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 12:37           ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-11 12:42             ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 12:58               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-12 20:26                 ` Brian Beattie
2003-12-13 12:03                   ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-13 15:04                     ` jeff millar
2003-12-13 17:27                     ` Gene Heskett
2003-12-11 13:54             ` Andrew Pimlott
2003-12-11 15:12               ` David Woodhouse
2003-12-05  3:58         ` Jason Kingsland
2003-12-05  1:58   ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  4:58     ` Erik Andersen
2003-12-05  6:34       ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05  6:43         ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-05  2:07   ` Kendall Bennett
2003-12-05  7:39     ` Stefan Smietanowski
2003-12-05  1:47 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 12:57   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-10 15:14     ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-10 15:25       ` Larry McVoy
2003-12-10 18:58         ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 19:40     ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-12 22:08       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-12 23:06         ` Jamie Lokier
2003-12-12 23:43         ` Pavel Machek
2003-12-15 18:01     ` Adam Sampson
2003-12-15 21:12       ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-05 11:35 Adam J. Richter
2003-12-05 11:25 ` David Schwartz
2003-12-05 15:36   ` Valdis.Kletnieks
     [not found] <732BE51FE9901143AE04411A11CC465602F155F3@evtexc02.tc.fluke.com>
2003-12-05 17:05 ` David Dyck
2003-12-05 18:51   ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-05 22:43 gary ng
2003-12-05 23:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2003-12-06  0:07   ` gary ng
2003-12-06 12:31 Matt
2003-12-07  2:34 gary ng
2003-12-08 16:08 ` Alex Bennee
2003-12-08 16:26   ` gary ng
2003-12-09  6:20 Paul Zimmerman
2003-12-09 13:22 ` Andrew Walrond
2003-12-09 14:12   ` Dale Whitchurch
2003-12-09 20:47     ` bill davidsen
2003-12-09 23:47     ` David Schwartz
2003-12-10 14:30     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 14:17 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 16:10   ` Richard B. Johnson
2003-12-10 17:58   ` Andre Hedrick
2003-12-11 15:01     ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-10 19:06 Manfred Spraul
     [not found] <fa.go3ahvi.h68o2q@ifi.uio.no>
     [not found] ` <fa.nk4vl6d.g0181@ifi.uio.no>
2003-12-12  3:03   ` walt
2003-12-18  9:12 Randy Zagar
2003-12-18  9:51 ` Thorsten Glaser
2003-12-18  9:55 ` Daniel Newby
2003-12-18 14:24 ` Jesse Pollard
2003-12-19  7:56 ` Andre Hedrick

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