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From: Alexander Graf <graf@amazon.com>
To: Paolo Bonzini <pbonzini@redhat.com>,
	"Paraschiv, Andra-Irina" <andraprs@amazon.com>,
	<linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Cc: Anthony Liguori <aliguori@amazon.com>,
	Benjamin Herrenschmidt <benh@amazon.com>,
	Colm MacCarthaigh <colmmacc@amazon.com>,
	Bjoern Doebel <doebel@amazon.de>,
	David Woodhouse <dwmw@amazon.co.uk>,
	Frank van der Linden <fllinden@amazon.com>,
	Martin Pohlack <mpohlack@amazon.de>, Matt Wilson <msw@amazon.com>,
	Balbir Singh <sblbir@amazon.com>,
	Stewart Smith <trawets@amazon.com>,
	Uwe Dannowski <uwed@amazon.de>, <kvm@vger.kernel.org>,
	<ne-devel-upstream@amazon.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH v1 00/15] Add support for Nitro Enclaves
Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2020 13:47:13 +0200
Message-ID: <d4091c63-6df6-8980-72c6-282cc553527e@amazon.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <d13f3c5c-33f5-375b-8582-fe37402777cb@redhat.com>



On 30.04.20 13:38, Paolo Bonzini wrote:
> 
> On 30/04/20 13:21, Alexander Graf wrote:
>>> Also, would you consider a mode where ne_load_image is not invoked and
>>> the enclave starts in real mode at 0xffffff0?
>>
>> Consider, sure. But I don't quite see any big benefit just yet. The
>> current abstraction level for the booted payloads is much higher. That
>> allows us to simplify the device model dramatically: There is no need to
>> create a virtual flash region for example.
> 
> It doesn't have to be flash, it can be just ROM.
> 
>> In addition, by moving firmware into the trusted base, firmware can
>> execute validation of the target image. If you make it all flat, how do
>> you verify whether what you're booting is what you think you're booting?
> 
> So the issue would be that a firmware image provided by the parent could
> be tampered with by something malicious running in the parent enclave?

You have to have a root of trust somewhere. That root then checks and 
attests everything it runs. What exactly would you attest for with a 
flat address space model?

So the issue is that the enclave code can not trust its own integrity if 
it doesn't have anything at a higher level attesting it. The way this is 
usually solved on bare metal systems is that you trust your CPU which 
then checks the firmware integrity (Boot Guard). Where would you put 
that check in a VM model? How close would it be to a normal VM then? And 
if it's not, what's the point of sticking to such terrible legacy boot 
paths?


Alex



Amazon Development Center Germany GmbH
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10117 Berlin
Geschaeftsfuehrung: Christian Schlaeger, Jonathan Weiss
Eingetragen am Amtsgericht Charlottenburg unter HRB 149173 B
Sitz: Berlin
Ust-ID: DE 289 237 879



  reply index

Thread overview: 77+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-04-21 18:41 Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 01/15] nitro_enclaves: Add ioctl interface definition Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:47   ` Randy Dunlap
2020-04-21 21:45     ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-22 15:49       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 02/15] nitro_enclaves: Define the PCI device interface Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 21:22   ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-23 13:37     ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-24 15:10       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 03/15] nitro_enclaves: Define enclave info for internal bookkeeping Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 04/15] nitro_enclaves: Init PCI device driver Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-25 14:25   ` Liran Alon
2020-04-29 16:31     ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 05/15] nitro_enclaves: Handle PCI device command requests Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-25 14:52   ` Liran Alon
2020-04-29 17:00     ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 06/15] nitro_enclaves: Handle out-of-band PCI device events Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 07/15] nitro_enclaves: Init misc device providing the ioctl interface Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 08/15] nitro_enclaves: Add logic for enclave vm creation Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 09/15] nitro_enclaves: Add logic for enclave vcpu creation Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 10/15] nitro_enclaves: Add logic for enclave memory region set Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 11/15] nitro_enclaves: Add logic for enclave start Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 12/15] nitro_enclaves: Add logic for enclave termination Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 13/15] nitro_enclaves: Add Kconfig for the Nitro Enclaves driver Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 18:50   ` Randy Dunlap
2020-04-22 14:35     ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 14/15] nitro_enclaves: Add Makefile " Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-23  8:12   ` kbuild test robot
2020-04-24 17:00     ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-23  8:43   ` kbuild test robot
2020-04-24 15:27     ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-21 18:41 ` [PATCH v1 15/15] MAINTAINERS: Add entry " Andra Paraschiv
2020-04-21 21:46 ` [PATCH v1 00/15] Add support for Nitro Enclaves Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-23 13:19   ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-23 13:42     ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-23 17:42       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-23 17:51         ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-23 20:56           ` Alexander Graf
2020-04-23 21:18             ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-24 12:56               ` Alexander Graf
2020-04-24 16:27                 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-24 19:11                   ` Alexander Graf
2020-04-25 16:05                     ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-27  9:15                       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-27  9:22                       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-27  9:46                         ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-27 10:00                           ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-28 15:07                       ` Alexander Graf
2020-04-29 13:20                         ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-30 13:59                           ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-30 10:34                         ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-30 11:21                           ` Alexander Graf
2020-04-30 11:38                             ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-30 11:47                               ` Alexander Graf [this message]
2020-04-30 11:58                                 ` Paolo Bonzini
2020-04-30 12:19                                   ` Alexander Graf
2020-05-07 17:44       ` Pavel Machek
2020-05-08  7:00         ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-05-09 19:21           ` Pavel Machek
2020-05-10 11:02             ` Herrenschmidt, Benjamin
2020-05-11 10:49               ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-05-11 13:49               ` Stefan Hajnoczi
2020-04-24  3:04     ` Longpeng (Mike, Cloud Infrastructure Service Product Dept.)
2020-04-24  8:19       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-24  9:54         ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-26  1:55           ` Longpeng (Mike, Cloud Infrastructure Service Product Dept.)
2020-04-27 18:39             ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-24  9:59     ` Tian, Kevin
2020-04-24 13:59       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-26  8:16         ` Tian, Kevin
2020-04-27 19:05           ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
     [not found]         ` <CAKXe6SLonLQLAOY9Q_2AzTeg4uJxiknsAWnJpTF0hMcXEG5Tew@mail.gmail.com>
2020-05-11 12:05           ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-25 15:25     ` Liran Alon
2020-04-27  7:56       ` Paraschiv, Andra-Irina
2020-04-27 11:44         ` Liran Alon
2020-04-28 15:25           ` Alexander Graf
2020-04-28 16:01             ` Liran Alon

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