From: Jeff Layton <jlayton@kernel.org>
To: Amir Goldstein <amir73il@gmail.com>, Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@linux-foundation.org>,
Kent Overstreet <kent.overstreet@linux.dev>,
Christian Brauner <brauner@kernel.org>,
Alexander Viro <viro@zeniv.linux.org.uk>,
John Stultz <jstultz@google.com>,
Thomas Gleixner <tglx@linutronix.de>,
Stephen Boyd <sboyd@kernel.org>,
Chandan Babu R <chandan.babu@oracle.com>,
"Darrick J. Wong" <djwong@kernel.org>,
Theodore Ts'o <tytso@mit.edu>,
Andreas Dilger <adilger.kernel@dilger.ca>,
Chris Mason <clm@fb.com>, Josef Bacik <josef@toxicpanda.com>,
David Sterba <dsterba@suse.com>, Hugh Dickins <hughd@google.com>,
Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
Jan Kara <jack@suse.de>, David Howells <dhowells@redhat.com>,
linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org,
linux-xfs@vger.kernel.org, linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org,
linux-btrfs@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org,
linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH RFC 2/9] timekeeping: new interfaces for multigrain timestamp handing
Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 14:40:06 -0400 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <d539804a2a73ad70265c5fa599ecd663cd235843.camel@kernel.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAOQ4uxhJGkZrUdUJ72vjRuLec0g8VqgRXRH=x7W9ogMU6rBxcQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Tue, 2023-10-24 at 10:08 +0300, Amir Goldstein wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 24, 2023 at 6:40 AM Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com> wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 02:18:12PM -1000, Linus Torvalds wrote:
> > > On Mon, 23 Oct 2023 at 13:26, Dave Chinner <david@fromorbit.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > The problem is the first read request after a modification has been
> > > > made. That is causing relatime to see mtime > atime and triggering
> > > > an atime update. XFS sees this, does an atime update, and in
> > > > committing that persistent inode metadata update, it calls
> > > > inode_maybe_inc_iversion(force = false) to check if an iversion
> > > > update is necessary. The VFS sees I_VERSION_QUERIED, and so it bumps
> > > > i_version and tells XFS to persist it.
> > >
> > > Could we perhaps just have a mode where we don't increment i_version
> > > for just atime updates?
> > >
> > > Maybe we don't even need a mode, and could just decide that atime
> > > updates aren't i_version updates at all?
> >
> > We do that already - in memory atime updates don't bump i_version at
> > all. The issue is the rare persistent atime update requests that
> > still happen - they are the ones that trigger an i_version bump on
> > XFS, and one of the relatime heuristics tickle this specific issue.
> >
> > If we push the problematic persistent atime updates to be in-memory
> > updates only, then the whole problem with i_version goes away....
> >
> > > Yes, yes, it's obviously technically a "inode modification", but does
> > > anybody actually *want* atime updates with no actual other changes to
> > > be version events?
> >
> > Well, yes, there was. That's why we defined i_version in the on disk
> > format this way well over a decade ago. It was part of some deep
> > dark magical HSM beans that allowed the application to combine
> > multiple scans for different inode metadata changes into a single
> > pass. atime changes was one of the things it needed to know about
> > for tiering and space scavenging purposes....
> >
>
> But if this is such an ancient mystical program, why do we have to
> keep this XFS behavior in the present?
> BTW, is this the same HSM whose DMAPI ioctls were deprecated
> a few years back?
>
> I mean, I understand that you do not want to change the behavior of
> i_version update without an opt-in config or mount option - let the distro
> make that choice.
> But calling this an "on-disk format change" is a very long stretch.
>
> Does xfs_repair guarantee that changes of atime, or any inode changes
> for that matter, update i_version? No, it does not.
> So IMO, "atime does not update i_version" is not an "on-disk format change",
> it is a runtime behavior change, just like lazytime is.
>
This would certainly be my preference. I don't want to break any
existing users though.
Perhaps this ought to be a mkfs option? Existing XFS filesystems could
still behave with the legacy behavior, but we could make mkfs.xfs build
filesystems by default that work like NFS requires.
--
Jeff Layton <jlayton@kernel.org>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-10-24 18:40 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 70+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-10-18 17:41 [PATCH RFC 0/9] fs: multigrain timestamps (redux) Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 1/9] fs: switch timespec64 fields in inode to discrete integers Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 2/9] timekeeping: new interfaces for multigrain timestamp handing Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 19:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-18 20:47 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 21:31 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-18 21:52 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-19 9:29 ` Christian Brauner
2023-10-19 11:28 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-19 22:02 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-20 12:12 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-20 20:06 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-20 20:20 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-20 21:05 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-22 22:17 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-23 14:45 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-23 23:26 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-24 0:18 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-24 3:40 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-24 4:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-24 7:08 ` Amir Goldstein
2023-10-24 18:40 ` Jeff Layton [this message]
2023-10-25 8:05 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-25 10:41 ` Amir Goldstein
2023-10-25 12:25 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-26 2:20 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-26 5:42 ` Amir Goldstein
2023-10-27 10:35 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-30 22:37 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-30 23:11 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-31 1:42 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-31 7:03 ` Amir Goldstein
2023-10-31 10:30 ` Christian Brauner
2023-10-31 11:29 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-31 21:57 ` Dave Chinner
2023-10-31 23:02 ` Darrick J. Wong
2023-10-31 23:47 ` Dave Chinner
2023-11-01 10:16 ` Jan Kara
2023-11-01 11:38 ` Amir Goldstein
2023-11-02 10:17 ` Jeff Layton
2023-11-01 20:10 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-11-01 21:34 ` Trond Myklebust
2023-11-01 22:23 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-11-01 22:45 ` Trond Myklebust
2023-11-01 23:29 ` Dave Chinner
2023-11-02 10:29 ` Jeff Layton
2023-11-02 10:15 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-31 23:12 ` Darrick J. Wong
2023-11-01 8:08 ` Amir Goldstein
2023-10-31 11:26 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-31 19:43 ` John Stoffel
2023-10-31 11:04 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-31 12:22 ` Jan Kara
2023-10-31 12:55 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-30 23:34 ` ronnie sahlberg
2023-10-24 14:24 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-24 19:06 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-24 19:40 ` Linus Torvalds
2023-10-24 20:19 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-31 10:26 ` Christian Brauner
2023-10-31 13:55 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-19 22:00 ` Thomas Gleixner
2023-10-19 22:41 ` Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 3/9] timekeeping: add new debugfs file to count multigrain timestamps Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 4/9] fs: add infrastructure for " Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 5/9] fs: have setattr_copy handle multigrain timestamps appropriately Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 6/9] xfs: switch to multigrain timestamps Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 7/9] ext4: " Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 8/9] btrfs: convert " Jeff Layton
2023-10-18 17:41 ` [PATCH RFC 9/9] tmpfs: add support for " Jeff Layton
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