From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_SIGNED,DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN,FREEMAIL_FROM, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, URIBL_BLOCKED,USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C942CC4CECE for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 14:00:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [209.132.180.67]) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96A4121907 for ; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 14:00:09 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="ERA9bZLB" Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S1730929AbfIROAJ (ORCPT ); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:00:09 -0400 Received: from mail-lf1-f66.google.com ([209.85.167.66]:38069 "EHLO mail-lf1-f66.google.com" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S1730928AbfIROAI (ORCPT ); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 10:00:08 -0400 Received: by mail-lf1-f66.google.com with SMTP id u28so5780358lfc.5; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 07:00:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Gjuy2BobqTtYzcRJC3yYgBOZPPiT0+Q2NlOyo4yVn/g=; b=ERA9bZLBrzVs82xSZNivXvDKvb3FTqbg8kJE+kceqpXcvg/brCo9l0dCNKW9cT2w+9 hwSw/inM1QPgrbcNjENefgmVnQQ1IFnh8Pa+0x0iy57TQjmoeRA54g95HDHWoDCo9PMe K0MLhf70r2xOd3UMXz2L6dmAHVV1UjpDB1Nw+pSQWt0VKVr28R+FsXNOfSqfO0y9ho6S phiTm9p57QhUCv53sFjx8wljoCdSN3lAqaQ+d/Do7W2JTGYxqa8HMWZvKE4OLTGj/5HL UJeLgEUKouCY/qHwfKOktZ0Lhqi3uLPZKie2Z2JFMsuo+rIIutwk8IRo/5Q9k9sdAy1w wazQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=Gjuy2BobqTtYzcRJC3yYgBOZPPiT0+Q2NlOyo4yVn/g=; b=EbTM6nMtGcSYbYC8x8qanw4enhuulkoJGbG9R+mBE3zR/qhb+hjav5FHEaqAprCNiB mLKE/V8po54ggK9JgTf5vO7OETnn8dmHwF/AjaS0K3Nm3QH59UAP+840nNsY+5m45j9+ a8q5Ioy8EeBYSsHXh97j6K2gscVlTV0pnOzRfcVUFAT3cap6SzRm7lMK0m/dxrwCRlKP uSK+iQJfazLvqxkas50goPQEizFJaqiXDWIE61KRkcqmHqVotrP2zHrGBfrrDnJ8Cvo5 qdgDFqUwnD2ZYL+f+fyvBlvhBfite1MbXVfvUVFiPsDQ0kZ3rKnXNB0kgozcidDs3R1R NCzA== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXVTW8/0UeEYU0GllSBx4WTtCPM2K3rGmaFZEadZ8aErg7PUbA1 cOZ7qAjAwGnI7j7ljC+fEv5812oqdFqeGPq4 X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqxHD9zCTNeJeKVgV36B4dJ+3O3sYwtWvVOPBUZCQCnPclJi8xUh18uHb3BhB5WYll4vKnri8w== X-Received: by 2002:a19:c14a:: with SMTP id r71mr2198196lff.55.1568815204787; Wed, 18 Sep 2019 07:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2a02:17d0:4a6:5700::47f? ([2a02:17d0:4a6:5700::47f]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id f21sm1207295lfm.90.2019.09.18.07.00.02 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Sep 2019 07:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Linux 5.3-rc8 To: Lennart Poettering , Willy Tarreau Cc: "Theodore Y. Ts'o" , Matthew Garrett , Linus Torvalds , "Ahmed S. Darwish" , Vito Caputo , Andreas Dilger , Jan Kara , Ray Strode , William Jon McCann , zhangjs , linux-ext4@vger.kernel.org, lkml References: <20190917052438.GA26923@1wt.eu> <2508489.jOnZlRuxVn@merkaba> <20190917121156.GC6762@mit.edu> <20190917155743.GB31567@gardel-login> <20190917162137.GA27921@1wt.eu> <20190917171328.GA31798@gardel-login> <20190917172929.GD27999@1wt.eu> <20190918133806.GA32346@gardel-login> From: "Alexander E. Patrakov" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2019 18:59:31 +0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20190918133806.GA32346@gardel-login> Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="------------ms000105010902080405070607" Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org This is a cryptographically signed message in MIME format. --------------ms000105010902080405070607 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-PH Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 18.09.2019 18:38, Lennart Poettering =D0=BF=D0=B8=D1=88=D0=B5=D1=82: > On Di, 17.09.19 19:29, Willy Tarreau (w@1wt.eu) wrote: >=20 >>> What do you expect these systems to do though? >>> >>> I mean, think about general purpose distros: they put together live >>> images that are supposed to work on a myriad of similar (as in: same >>> arch) but otherwise very different systems (i.e. VMs that might lack >>> any form of RNG source the same as beefy servers with muliple sources= >>> the same as older netbooks with few and crappy sources, ...). They ca= n't >>> know what the specific hw will provide or won't. It's not their >>> incompetence that they build the image like that. It's a common, very= >>> common usecase to install a system via SSH, and it's also very common= >>> to have very generic images for a large number varied systems to run >>> on. >> >> I'm totally file with installing the system via SSH, using a temporary= >> SSH key. I do make a strong distinction between the installation phase= >> and the final deployment. The SSH key used *for installation* doesn't >> need to the be same as the final one. And very often at the end of the= >> installation we'll have produced enough entropy to produce a correct >> key. >=20 > That's not how systems are built today though. And I am not sure they > should be. I mean, the majority of systems at this point probably have > some form of hardware (or virtualized) RNG available (even raspi has > one these days!), so generating these keys once at boot is totally > OK. Probably a number of others need just a few seconds to get the > entropy needed, where things are totally OK too. The only problem is > systems that lack any reasonable source of entropy and where > initialization of the pool will take overly long. >=20 > I figure we can reduce the number of systems where entropy is scarce > quite a bit if we'd start crediting entropy by default from various hw > rngs we currently don't credit entropy for. For example, the TPM and > older intel/amd chipsets. You currently have to specify > rng_core.default_quality=3D1000 on the kernel cmdline to make them > credit entropy. I am pretty sure this should be the default now, in a > world where CONFIG_RANDOM_TRUST_CPU=3Dy is set anyway. i.e. why say > RDRAND is fine but those chipsets are not? That makes no sense to me. >=20 > I am very sure that crediting entropy to chipset hwrngs is a much > better way to solve the issue on those systems than to just hand out > rubbish randomness. Very well said. However, 1000 is more than the hard-coded quality of=20 some existing rngs, and so would send a misleading message that they are = somehow worse. I would suggest case-by-case reevaluation of all existing = hwrng drivers by their maintainers, and then setting the default to=20 something like 899, so that evaluated drivers have priority. --=20 Alexander E. 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