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From: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de>
To: Sam Ravnborg <sam@ravnborg.org>
Cc: Arnd Bergmann <arnd@arndb.de>,
	Linux Kernel Mailing List <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	linux-m68k <linux-m68k@lists.linux-m68k.org>,
	Sparc kernel list <sparclinux@vger.kernel.org>,
	Linux-sh list <linux-sh@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Old platforms: bring out your dead
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 2021 09:05:17 +0100
Message-ID: <df42946e-5b1f-c433-fc6b-a2950f3d8dab@physik.fu-berlin.de> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210110214653.GA1693373@ravnborg.org>

Hello!

On 1/10/21 10:46 PM, Sam Ravnborg wrote:
>> I don't think this has reached any agreement yet. Multiple people want it to stay.
> 
> None of the people that replied have any real use of the sun4m port,
> they only wanted it to stay because they had some machines or such.
> In other words - people will be sad if we sunset sun4m, but it will not
> hurt anyone as there are no users left.
> 
> I will include the above summary when I post v2 of the patch to sunset
> sun4m and sun4d. Then we will see what we conclude in the end.

I'm not sure I understand the reasoning for doing this. The SPARC architecture
isn't going to see any new hardware developments in the future after Oracle
let go of most of the SPARC developers. So it's not that we need to make room
for new hardware.

And I also disagree with Arnd's stance that a port seems broken because it
doesn't see frequent or recent changes. As pointed out by Thomas Bogendoerfer
in this thread [1], missing updates don't necessarily mean that something
is broken but it can also just mean the hardware is fully supported and
working, so why fix something that isn't broken?

On the other hand, there are really serious bugs in the kernel that easily
allow crashing the whole machine (here on POWER [2] or here on SPARC [3])
that never get addressed.

We have a $10k IBM POWER server in Debian Ports which hosts a big-endian
PowerKVM build server instance and regularly hard-crashes because of the
bug in [2]. This bug has remained unfixed for almost a year now.

On top of that, some of the tree-wide conversions like [4] have completely
broken the Linux kernel on certain machines so that any larger ia64 servers
are stuck on the 4.14 kernel with no fix in sight. Before that, the kernel
worked perfectly fine on these machines.

I understand that cleaning up code and modernizing things is important, but
I think that the top priority should be to deliver something that is stable
and usable by the enduser.

But kernel development shouldn't be about scratching an itch which I sometimes
have the impression is the main driver behind some changes in the kernel.

I have personally invested a lot of time and effort in the past years to get
Debian into shape on exotic and older architectures and I feel all this effort
goes to waste when upstream projects just decide to kill of a certain platform
in the kernel or toolchain like it already happened with PowerPCSPE in GCC.

Adrian

> [1] https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20210108234430.GA17487@alpha.franken.de/
> [2] https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=206669
> [3] https://marc.info/?l=linux-sparc&m=160967865029609&w=2
> [4] https://marc.info/?l=linux-ia64&m=156144480821712&w=2

-- 
 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaubitz@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-    GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913


  reply index

Thread overview: 117+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-01-08 22:55 Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-08 23:32 ` Steven Rostedt
2021-01-09 22:04   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-08 23:44 ` Thomas Bogendoerfer
2021-01-09  0:16 ` Linus Walleij
2021-01-09 17:32   ` Florian Fainelli
2021-01-09 21:59   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-09  5:56 ` Willy Tarreau
2021-01-09 21:52   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-10  6:21     ` Willy Tarreau
2021-01-10 10:44       ` Russell King - ARM Linux admin
2021-01-11  9:50     ` David Laight
2021-01-13 10:27       ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-01-13 12:02         ` Linus Walleij
2021-01-13 12:17           ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-01-13 12:21             ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-01-15  0:03               ` Bernd Petrovitsch
2021-01-15  0:24                 ` William Breathitt Gray
2021-01-15  8:59                   ` David Laight
2021-01-13 12:30           ` William Breathitt Gray
2021-01-13 12:56             ` William Breathitt Gray
2021-01-13 13:44           ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-09 17:34 ` Florian Fainelli
2021-01-09 21:18   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-09 17:43 ` Russell King - ARM Linux admin
2021-01-09 21:34   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11 20:09     ` Russell King - ARM Linux admin
2021-01-09 20:19 ` Baruch Siach
2021-01-09 21:19   ` Arnd Bergmann
     [not found] ` <67171E13-6786-4B44-A8C2-3302963B055F@gmail.com>
2021-01-09 22:20   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-10 18:12     ` Fabian Vogt
2021-01-10 19:20       ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-10 21:33       ` Linus Walleij
2021-01-11  0:33         ` Russell King - ARM Linux admin
2021-01-11 12:32           ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11 12:36             ` Russell King - ARM Linux admin
2021-01-09 23:12 ` Andrew Lunn
2021-01-10  8:45   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-10 16:46     ` Andrew Lunn
2021-01-10 17:27       ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-10 19:51         ` Andrew Lunn
2021-01-10 15:51 ` Neil Armstrong
2021-01-10 15:56   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-10 17:35 ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2021-01-10 21:46   ` Sam Ravnborg
2021-01-11  8:05     ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz [this message]
2021-01-11 14:55       ` chase rayfield
2021-01-12  0:26         ` Rob Landley
2021-01-12  0:50           ` chase rayfield
2021-01-12 14:37         ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2021-01-11 18:09     ` Rob Landley
2021-01-11 15:04   ` Gerhard Pircher
2021-01-12 14:44     ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2021-01-12 22:46       ` Linus Walleij
2021-01-13  8:09         ` Rob Landley
2021-01-13  8:21           ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-13 13:25             ` Rob Landley
2021-01-13 12:02           ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-01-13  8:15         ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-13 10:39         ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-14  3:54           ` New platforms: bring out your dead, was " Finn Thain
2021-01-14  9:41         ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2021-01-14  9:48           ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-14 21:21           ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-14 22:54             ` Undesirable code, was Re: Old platforms etc Finn Thain
2021-01-14 23:09             ` Old platforms: bring out your dead Max Filippov
2021-01-15  8:31               ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-13  0:12       ` Old platforms never die, was " Finn Thain
2021-01-16  6:54         ` Rob Landley
2021-01-16 23:22           ` Finn Thain
2021-01-13 11:47       ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-01-11  1:39 ` Daniel Palmer
2021-01-11  9:15   ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2021-01-11  9:20     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-11  9:26       ` John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
2021-01-11  9:36         ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-11  9:50           ` Greg Ungerer
2021-01-11  9:42     ` Daniel Palmer
2021-01-11 10:13   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11  8:19 ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-11  8:59   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11  9:16     ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-11 10:28       ` Geert Uytterhoeven
2021-01-11 10:37         ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11  9:40     ` Thomas Bogendoerfer
2021-01-11 10:34       ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11  8:40 ` efm32 is dead [Was: Old platforms: bring out your dead] Uwe Kleine-König
2021-01-11 11:10 ` Old platforms: bring out your dead Viresh Kumar
2021-01-11 19:59   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11 21:15     ` Mattias Wallin
2021-01-11 21:47       ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11 13:13 ` Marc Gonzalez
2021-01-11 17:29   ` Måns Rullgård
2021-01-11 21:50     ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-12  8:23       ` Marc Gonzalez
2021-01-11 14:22 ` Mark Salter
2021-01-11 15:00   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11 14:44 ` Alexander Shiyan
2021-01-11 14:58   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11 16:23 ` Sylvain Lemieux
2021-01-11 22:17   ` Alexandre Belloni
2021-01-11 19:58 ` Thomas Petazzoni
2021-01-11 20:10   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-11 20:25 ` Song Bao Hua (Barry Song)
2021-01-12  8:41   ` Marc Gonzalez
2021-01-13 10:30 ` Andy Shevchenko
2021-01-13 11:02   ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-13 16:14 ` [v2] " Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-13 19:00   ` Krzysztof Hałasa
2021-01-14  8:51     ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-15  7:08   ` Wei Xu
2021-01-15  9:26     ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-15 11:09       ` Leizhen (ThunderTown)
2021-01-15 12:04         ` Arnd Bergmann
2021-01-18 10:46           ` Wei Xu
2021-01-13 22:27 ` Richard Z
2021-01-12  2:05 tedheadster

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