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Fri, 26 Oct 2018 10:32:06 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document To: NeilBrown , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman , ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Thomas Gleixner , Olof Johansson , Chris Mason , Mishi Choudhary References: <20181020134908.GA32218@kroah.com> <87y3ar80ac.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <2341648.lzjnUGKk1z@siriux> <877ei56579.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> From: Rainer Fiebig Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=jrf@mailbox.org; keydata= xsFNBFohwNMBEADSyoSeizfx3D4yl2vTXfNamkLDCuXDN+7P5/UbB+Kj/d4RTbA/w0fqu3S3 Kdc/mff99ypi59ryf8VAwd3XM19beUrDZVTU1/3VHn/gVYaI0/k7cnPpEaOgYseemBX5P2OV ZE/MjfQrdxs80ThMqFs2dV1eHnDyNiI3FRV8zZ5xPeOkwvXakAOcWQA7Jkxmdc3Zmc1s1q8p ZWz77UQ5RRMUFw7Z9l0W1UPhOwr/sBPMuKQvGdW+eui3xOpMKDYYgs7uN4Ftg4vsiMEo03i5 qrK0mfueA73NADuVIf9cB2STDywF/tF1I27r+fWns1x9j/hKEPOAf4ACrNUdwQ9qzu7Nj9rz 2WU8sjneqiiED2nKdzV0gDnFkvXY9HCFZR2YUC2BZNvLiUJ1PROFDdNxmdbLZAKok17mPyOR MU0VQ61+PNjS8nsnAml8jnpzpcvLcQxR7ejRAV6w+Dc7JwnuQOiPS6M7x5FTk3QTPL+rvLFJ 09Nb3ooeIQ/OUQoeM7pW8ll8Tmu2qSAJJ+3O002ADRVU1Nrc9tM5Ry9ht5zjmsSnFcSe2GoJ Knu1hyXHDAvcq/IffOwzdeVstdhotBpf058jlhFlfnaqXcOaaHZrlHtrKOfQQZrxXMfcrvyv iE2yhO8lUpoDOVuC1EhSidLd/IkCyfPjfIEBjQsQts7lepDgpQARAQABzSRSYWluZXIgRmll YmlnIDxqcmZpZWJpZ0BtYWlsYm94Lm9yZz7CwYIEEwECACwCGyMFCQlmAYAHCwkIBwMCAQYV CAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWiLFEwIZAQAKCRDw4fcmJYr49Qq0D/4nkFpowFQphNzQfzH8 OR4Zh2ZLADZj3vuW/d4zEM9+K258WaHl9orLElwPjNOfyNwUtzJw31v/aMGEQ70lnKyD/VZz mTSamvk4br7ccLjnMV61edoj/hGpAYzBgiS7ibNPB62qsrjkKuXb1iPzg1GCJR34k264KHN7 jjz0Le1G0WYIndNfNV5/cm4+8LhEV+YE57fMJQCwG3WfOCthPoe03IUxWc/v9C3PaLRentE2 D0IFHqkBXYo3HwxZ7a95HFkeB7QUqHchEtOJ9M14841vLxz85z1t7AmkpaRfsHxigfQegAAf U4bLQzdsBSLAMHq7+EESHSE6XGpr4U2lk+MXEpN6jInwc38h22dJWt2Ycmv5ynjS3+sCVzXn ZukU8N5FUXgnidJnYcl3aeS1p7a3cho4PVJMGFF/ZUcbk0rsE6LrbKsiB8t7VziWCWMSpgyb DOA+Rk0Z3YIciKWme0xho2FhbPDeZU0+Ht9VXitb6ZVHLPO4JkQimOrCWlAwxgtQUsbSX0GE YCmYXWYw6r3J7rHoBK3LGh8lQu6nwQ1DYNnMxP0Gqj4lME6e2Uz1mGHrc7fz4HAzl98k6Hek 6IxVI5zK2+ez/xHyxSqkGWt6dq/zuCkwiScjjKUw86PGWwmerSCdsCXcLLK8zwCucoyNY9NV 2bMXkkcTXsUrmgnlus7BTQRaIcDTARAAwhbtQAUmZG/rkpR/6/xr7jRqi5Z3M5LZNw4lW9k4 nBpQDAP/rLVuREnz/upm314P9i5iN9g2wsbReZBJ9KiUxT39KD5p99KZGIH0elgZy+nDnb3o QLbtAr8+ox1ThOyOEJ7iX378txc1JD9IWJuv6YLMlkXa4ZuuAMCqKUvCChEjcHhZ+Ecb8OX8 GwIKUoklWhoHR7OcMqAkjdhA698FkWNkgIeqMiTN/hBJ9u010ZeB82ibDAKSMetMRxflCwTh rVrfrOr5+ZkJvoN5r+Jy1ulk8OOnDOjvqXoUcee5zdloZymeY3f7zebddvPmuiR0qXX0KYeS bhNF1GugLgbYeU2ev0nZ74F6vTwLUraRjKUzk0bq6SELlNMriS2xWj7zDB2XtzUdTHPYSgFD KGYxRqiM7KJbheCL7gD1wxUGRf14yJISXmDX/fZhsFrZ/NF3UqxJnLCz9lqyMCvT8prJjlAQ u0zcFcrGAYVBNeJMAKlukMllRMgWdSLmJQiDC5JMaXoEeXdGpIv8LgH+yU3tkKjXvkjwGywc XuL28ZScap3iJj08B8HWHmlL5b3pCkZv1w87SSF+FarrWl4F4u4Uj+u2r7/NEZVmJ0GpNHNw kYFQiX1Coky6+Ga1/gXUBP6grI9eZOMD+qtsJC1JVPY8VIsjq/47R1tBTKoiANQ/M+MAEQEA AcLBZQQYAQIADwUCWiHA0wIbDAUJCWYBgAAKCRDw4fcmJYr49T45EADMYWeyxZQi7bG3Iv1N 485kMVhs/90ojJAEoBOldihdEvZatH21JVLmMbb0toAYXz8NZ9Npmzk7isrhigjy58Xob4cd I4SPg6WMVSuGBhpVSrProQcW3BdsaBqyHBJXMpDKZlmoZug2ia7cP2kk5H4D1Trcu//x+78Q Xh14g+hValrgphRSxuygdbDlhqBe3rqh5IK0UUh9pBeLjUvh8a3mqnjZI+xJWSlYVZ3qDnlW uKGc/1uotXYUKVDtBgTTt8AerGX+1PIaosOUr1fSE6158XP353EyABDglrkZsJL4PF3kE73c 8e+z4+lY1VVF4VKaoC6KU9mJEhcJSsz5OOHpBgz4TR6XjumL5+f7+7hEaI6sIvjSNDp97ZMJ NPf5iznOn8FFA0EeENttOnibbw6WHMtIsHVN8axqLgBIT04bidgpj57FinbcnJewqYiOQtHu 1/edHTQsfHXx2HcxLiyuDxXX1yJ+Tv2ZeQPSliH68KUYP2y/8tNS4MeF8/QLmMAZ9Cux37ZF EmdsS4XF92CpI09dB3NOQiXBv3qUBTHHDYH04esCC+kJoZck7O1LP2EMMzQyVUPBW91Y8W/0 bMeoZrfbN7hsvrnH60PqXlTvpZPnlK6VnH/bl0rf2cOSmOeJUfreToMYwWCtEhKq7YYxJQ8M 6/dT7HxuwnVIkER8kg== Message-ID: Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2018 10:33:16 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <877ei56579.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="mk6KZKkkzDnuNF6O7Lw1QQ6XNUiNVkUc0" Sender: linux-kernel-owner@vger.kernel.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --mk6KZKkkzDnuNF6O7Lw1QQ6XNUiNVkUc0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="adwNx6T1iwfkUPnjNTpDEaR3eyN6EMFAv"; protected-headers="v1" From: Rainer Fiebig To: NeilBrown , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org Cc: Greg Kroah-Hartman , ksummit-discuss@lists.linuxfoundation.org, Thomas Gleixner , Olof Johansson , Chris Mason , Mishi Choudhary Message-ID: Subject: Re: Call to Action Re: [PATCH 0/7] Code of Conduct: Fix some wording, and add an interpretation document References: <20181020134908.GA32218@kroah.com> <87y3ar80ac.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> <2341648.lzjnUGKk1z@siriux> <877ei56579.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> In-Reply-To: <877ei56579.fsf@notabene.neil.brown.name> --adwNx6T1iwfkUPnjNTpDEaR3eyN6EMFAv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable NeilBrown schrieb: > On Thu, Oct 25 2018, Rainer Fiebig wrote: >=20 >> Am Montag, 22. Oktober 2018, 08:20:11 schrieb NeilBrown: >>> On Sat, Oct 20 2018, Greg Kroah-Hartman wrote: >>>> Hi all, >>>> >>>> As everyone knows by now, we added a new Code of Conduct to the kern= el >>>> tree a few weeks ago. >>> >>> I wanted to stay detached from all this, but as remaining (publicly) >>> silent might be seen (publicly) as acquiescing, I hereby declare that= : >>> I reject, as illegitimate, this Code and the process by >>> which it is being "developed". >>> >>> It is clear from the surrounding discussions that this is well outsid= e our >>> core competencies. It will be flawed, it isn't what we need. >>> >>> I call on any other community members who reject this process to say = so, >>> not to remain silent. >>> #Iobject >>> >>> We don't need a "Code of Conduct" nearly as much as we need "Leadersh= ip >>> in conduct". Without the leadership, any code looks like a joke. >>> >> [...] >> =20 >>> I call on you, Greg: >>> - to abandon this divisive attempt to impose a "Code of Conduct" >>> - to revert 8a104f8b5867c68 >> >> Yes but this seems increasingly unlikely now. However, there may be an= =20 >> alternative. >> >> Jugding by the release-message for 4.19, some people here are fans of = >> Monty Python's. No wonder - as those guys are famous for being unrelen= ting=20 >> supporters of Political Correctness. >> >> So one would be on the safe side if one just supplemented "Our Pledge"= =20 >> with this: >> >> "Everybody has the right to be offended." >> >> I think, John Cleese would also welcome this.[1] >> >> What do you think? >=20 > I do think that giving certain rights to the community is a good thing:= > - the right to tell anyone that their speech is hurtful > - the right to (patch) review by a third party. >=20 > I don't think the right to be offended really needs to be given. > Yes, I know it is a joke and I do like Monty Python. I just don't thin= k > it is particular helpful in this context. Maybe I missed something. Of course it's a joke and iirc it was indeed John Cleese who made it. But= he made it for a reason, out of concern. It has a serious core. The question is: what *is* helpful in this matter? Just saying "this is not helpful" isn't helpful either. It's a well-known= killer-phrase that has been used ad nauseam in this discussion. But an alternative is never given. And thus it's just an other way of saying "Eat it. And shut tf up!" Not even *constructive* criticism is helpful. AFAIK I'm the only one here= who came up with a *complete* alternative - ignored. Others provided patches = for certain sections - ignored. Data that indicate that this may be detriment= al to Linux - ignored. Almost anything that was provided by me or others - igno= red. What kind of community or attitude is this? This feels more like "The Wal= l" or North Korea than an Open-Source-project. And what beat everything was to misuse famously politically *in*correct M= onty Python to malign criticism of this Political-Correctness-monster. The "People's Front" - message will forever be a prominent exhibit in "Monty Python's Hall of Shame". And the author should be banned from laughing ab= out MP-sketches until he recants. Perhaps one should also report this inciden= t to the "Ministry of Silly CoCs". ;) > For myself, I relinquish my right to be offended. I just don't do it. > It doesn't seem to be worth the effort. I don't. John Cleese is a smart guy. And he has a point. OK, thanks for your reply! But I think it's time for me to move on. "Cut = your losses", as they say. Good luck and regards! Rainer Fiebig --adwNx6T1iwfkUPnjNTpDEaR3eyN6EMFAv-- --mk6KZKkkzDnuNF6O7Lw1QQ6XNUiNVkUc0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEE6yx5PjBNuGB2qJXG8OH3JiWK+PUFAlvS0V0ACgkQ8OH3JiWK +PVFSBAApW00InjnyXN1MaU8ouqtamUmhz7OrwJHxa4HYzTJZvn6BpX6KY6NcfZ9 ygAXdOnvrp9mq6WYy9dydV0VomeIT86tfFK15amHyQuTTgaw3M646nyO0wPmKV9F 4txlF8nlLo+vpIC8vOx8GhpJ3+EFMMUDKBDByhQ83WtF6WpkdP0KXEwwieWPnFG4 8Q4UOxOVJZHD2SahWzvMmwLaBHQT2pNXcjM5VM6VqoHNAP9Tgn9c0eXkCctENiyN 9f8w223r6FhyNag4eXVF3Of8ja6aBqdr3HbKiKIcTV/PzHmA2QEMy7leddTw/O9/ epfQLfbeAOea9BDG7IXIWSUBlKMp0BTEygNqYf8GwuIHSMD2AHRWyXbIydpPNrbj w4aUYgb64wxMDL6ei3aaIhdr9C1+oT5ZwuimteL6C7EHbAwx5WPkJJ2HIGB8g7wd /pLAi1V1O6DPkkxtnbFJn49GDoS+fs8WnIOnlJmcucWTXgHHyAxEpHNL4r0vBfQD R+29Czy8W2hINC/jT5hIhuwFhsIexh1bAzVQLTD67XDFHYXe1MHEyAA25kU/gH9P wQOah4Vtvh1sKyDtPdHeE9eEKG1BaG2mCQJmgBUcyEOFvycLwnS5n3Q6D1WK73Sr rblas5W9uOBV+De0nVAUgiPOpXUCVBMpTpKfDknidFwB78rLpr4= =GsF/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --mk6KZKkkzDnuNF6O7Lw1QQ6XNUiNVkUc0--