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From: David Hildenbrand <david@redhat.com>
To: Baoquan He <bhe@redhat.com>
Cc: Andrew Morton <akpm@linux-foundation.org>,
	andreyknvl@google.com, christian.brauner@ubuntu.com,
	colin.king@canonical.com, corbet@lwn.net, dyoung@redhat.com,
	frederic@kernel.org, gpiccoli@canonical.com,
	john.p.donnelly@oracle.com, jpoimboe@redhat.com,
	keescook@chromium.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, masahiroy@kernel.org,
	mchehab+huawei@kernel.org, mike.kravetz@oracle.com,
	mingo@kernel.org, mm-commits@vger.kernel.org, paulmck@kernel.org,
	peterz@infradead.org, rdunlap@infradead.org, rostedt@goodmis.org,
	rppt@kernel.org, saeed.mirzamohammadi@oracle.com,
	samitolvanen@google.com, sboyd@kernel.org, tglx@linutronix.de,
	torvalds@linux-foundation.org, vgoyal@redhat.com,
	yifeifz2@illinois.edu
Subject: Re: [patch 48/91] kernel/crash_core: add crashkernel=auto for vmcore creation
Date: Mon, 10 May 2021 10:32:57 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4a544493-0622-ac6d-f14b-fb338e33b25e@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20210510045338.GB2946@localhost.localdomain>


>> "Not correlated directly" ...
>>
>> "1G-64G:128M,64G-1T:256M,1T-:512M"
>>
>> Am I still asleep and dreaming? :)
> 
> Well, I said 'Not correlated directly', then gave sentences to explan
> the reason. I would like to repeat them:
> 
> 1) Crashkernel need more memory on some systems mainly because of
> device driver. You can take a system, no matter how much memory you
> increse or decrease total system RAM size, the crashkernel size needed
> is invariable.
> 
>    - The extreme case I have give about the i40e.
>    - And the more devices, narutally the more memory needed.
> 
> 2) About "1G-64G:128M,64G-1T:256M,1T-:512M", I also said the different
> value is because taking very low proprotion of extra memory to avoid
> potential risk, it's cost effective. Here, add another 90M which is
> 0.13% of 64G, 0.0085% of 1TB.

Just let me clarify the problem I am having with all of this:

We model the crashkernel size as a function of the memory size. Yet, 
it's pretty much independent of the memory size. That screams for "ugly".

The main problem is that early during boot we don't have a clue how much 
crashkernel memory we may need. So what I see is that we are mostly 
using a heuristic based on the memory size to come up with the right 
answer how much devices we might have. That just feels very wrong.

I can understand the reasoning of "using a fraction of the memory size" 
when booting up just to be on the safe side as we don't know", and that 
motivation is much better than what I read so far. But then I wonder if 
we cannot handle that any better? Because this feels very suboptimal to 
me and I feel like there can be cases where the heuristic is just wrong.

As one example, can I add a whole bunch of devices to a 32GB VM and 
break "crashkernel=auto"?

As another example, when I boot a 64G VM, the crashkernel size will be 
512MB, although I really only might need 128MB. That's an effective 
overhead of 0.5%. And especially when we take memory ballooning etc. 
into account it can effectively be more than that.

Let's do a more detailed look. PPC64 in kernel-ark:

"2G-4G:384M,4G-16G:512M,16G-64G:1G,64G-128G:2G,128G-:4G";

Assume I would only need 385M on a simple 16GB VM. We would have an 
overhead of ~4%. But maybe on ppc64 we do have to take the memory size 
into account (my assumption and, thus, my comment regarding memory hotplug)?


I wonder if we could always try allocating larger granularity (falling 
back to smaller if it fails), and once the kernel is able to come up 
with a better answer how many devices there are and, thus, how big the 
crashkernel area really should be, shrink the preallocated crashkernel 
(either from the kernel or from user space)? Not completely trivial but 
possible I think. It's trivial when we allocate a memmap for the 
crashkernel (I think we mostly do but I might be wrong).

The "crashkernel=auto" would really do something magical good instead of 
implement some heuristic base don the memory size.

[...]
>> So, all the rules we have are essentially broken because they rely
>> completely on the system RAM during boot.
> 
> How do you get this?
> 
> Crashkernel=auto is a default value. PC, VMs, normal workstation and server
> which are the overall majority can work well with it. I can say the number
> is 99%. Only very few high end workstation, servers which contain
> many PCI devices need investigation to decide crashkernel size. A possible
> manual setting and rebooting is needed for them. You call this
> 'essentially broken'? So you later suggestd constructing crashkernel value
> in user space and rebooting is not broken? Even though it's the similar
> thing? what is your logic behind your conclusion?

A kernel early during boot can only guess. A kernel late during boot 
knows. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

> 
> Crashkernel=auto is mainly targetting most of systems, help people
> w/o much knowledge of kdump implementation to use it for debugging.
> 
> I can say more about the benefit of crashkernel=auto. On Fedora, the
> community distros sponsord by Redhat, the kexec/kdump is also maintained
> by us. Fedora kernel is mainline kernel, so no crashkernel=auto
> provided. We almost never get bug report from users, means almost nobody
> use  it. We hope Fedora users' usage can help test functionality of
> component.

I know how helpful "crashkernel=auto" was so far, but I am also aware 
that there was strong pushback in the past, and I remember for the 
reasons I gave. IMHO we should refine that approach instead of trying to 
push the same thing upstream every couple of years.

I ran into the "512MB crashkernel" on a 64G VM with memory ballooning 
issue already but didn't report a BZ, because so far, I was under the 
impression that more memory means more crashkernel. But you explained to 
me that I was just running into a (for my use case) bad heuristic.

>>> So system RAM size is the least important part to influence crashkernel
>>
>> Aehm, not with fadump, no?
> 
> Fadump makes use of crashkernel reservation, but has different mechanism
> to dumping. It needs a kernel config too if this patch is accepted, or
> it can add it to command line from a user space program, I will talk
> about that later. This depends on IBM's decision, I have added Hari to CC,
> they will make the best choice after consideration.
> 

I was looking at RHEL8, and there we have

fadump_cmdline = get_last_crashkernel(cmdline, "fadump=", NULL);
...
if (!fadump_cmdline || (strncmp(fadump_cmdline, "off", 3) == 0))
	ck_cmdline = ...
else
	ck_cmdline = ...

which was a runtime check for fadump.

Something that cannot be modeled properly at least with this patch here.

> }
>>
>>> costing. Say my x1 laptop, even though I extended the RAM to 100TB, 160M
>>> crashkernel is still enough. Just we would like to get a tiny extra part
>>> to add to crashkernel if the total RAM is very large, that's the rule
>>> for crashkernel=auto. As for VMs, given their very few devices, virtio
>>> disk, NAT nic, etc, no matter how much memory is deployed and hot
>>> added/removed, crashkernel size won't be influenced very much. My
>>> personal understanding about it.
>>
>> That's an interesting observation. But you're telling me that we end up
>> wasting memory for the crashkernel because "crashkernel=auto" which is
>> supposed to do something magical good automatically does something very
>> suboptimal? Oh my ... this is broken.
>>
>> Long story short: crashkernel=auto is pure ugliness.
> 
> Very interesting. Your long story is clear to me, but your short story
> confuses me a lot.
> 
> Let me try to sort out and understand. In your first reply, you asserted
> "it's plain wrong when taking memory hotplug serious account as
> we see it quite heavily in VMs", means you plain don't know if it's
> wrong, but you say it's plain wrong. I answered you 'no, not at all'
> with detailed explanation, means it's plain opposite to your assertion.

Yep, I might be partially wrong about memory hotplug thingy, mostly 
because I had the RHEL8 rule for ppc64 (including fadump) in mind. For 
dynamic resizing of VMs, the current rules for VMs can be very sub-optimal.

Let's relax "plain wrong" to "the heuristic can be very suboptimal 
because it uses something mostly unrelated to come up with an answer". 
And it's simply not plain wrong because in practice it gets the job 
done. Mostly.


> So then you quickly came to 'crashkernel=auto is pure ugliness'. If a
> simple crashkernel=auto is added to cover 99% systems, and advanced
> operation only need be done for the rest which is tiny proportion,
> this is called pure ugliness, what's pure beauty? Here I say 99%, I
> could be very conservative.

I don't like wasting memory just because we cannot come up with a better 
heuristic. Yes, it somewhat gets the job done, but I call that ugly. My 
humble opinion.

[...]

> 
> Yes, if you haven't seen our patch in fedora kexec-tools maining list,
> your suggested approach is the exactly same thing we are doing, please
> check below patch.
> 
> [PATCH v2] kdumpctl: Add kdumpctl estimate
> https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/kexec@lists.fedoraproject.org/thread/YCEOJHQXKVEIVNB23M2TDAJGYVNP5MJZ/
> 
> We will provide a new feature in user space script, to let user check if
> their current crashkernel size is good or not. If not, they can adjust
> accordingly.

That's good, thanks for the pointer -- wasn't aware of that.

> 
> But, where's the current crashkernel size coming from? Surely
> crashkernel=auto. You wouldn't add a random crashkernel size then
> compared with the recommended crashkernel size, then reboot, will you?
> If crashkernel=auto get the expected size, no need to reboot. Means 99%
> of systems has no need to reboot. Only very few of systems, need reboot
> after checking the recommended size.
> 
> Long story short. crashkernel=auto will give a default value, trying to
> cover most of systems. (Very few high end server need check if it's
> enough and adjust with the help of user space tools. Then reboot.)

Then we might really want to investigate into shrinking a possibly 
larger allocation dynamically during boot.

>>
>> Also: this approach here doesn't make any sense when you want to do
>> something dependent on other cmdline parameters. Take "fadump=on" vs
>> "fadump=off" as an example. You just cannot handle it properly as proposed
>> in this patch. To me the approach in this patch makes least sense TBH.
> 
> Why? We don't have this kind of judgement in kernel? Crashkernel=auto is
> a generic mechanism, and has been added much earlier. Fadump was added
> later by IBM for their need on ppc only, it relies on crashkernel
> reservation but different mechanism of dumping. If it has different value
> than kdump, a special hanlding is certainly needed. Who tell it has to be
> 'fadump=on'? They can check the value in user space program and add into
> cmdline as you suggested, they can also make it into auto. The most suitable
> is the best.

Take a look at the RHEL8 handling to see where my comment is coming from.

> 
> And I have several questions to ask, hope you can help answer:
> 
> 1) Have you ever met crashkernel=auto broken on virt platform?

I have encountered it being very suboptimal. I call wasting hundreds of 
MB problematic, especially when dynamically resizing of VMs (for 
example, using memory ballooning)

> 
> Asking this because you are from Virt team, and crashkernel=auto has been
> there in RHEL for many years, and we have been working with Virt team to
> support dumping. We haven't seen any bug report or complaint about
> crashkernel=auto from Virt.

I've had plenty of bug reports where people try inflating the balloon 
fairly heavily but don't take the crashkernel size into account. The 
bigger the crashkernel size, the bigger the issue when people try 
squeezing the last couple of MB out of their VMs. I keep repeating to 
them "with crashkernel=auto, you have to be careful about how much 
memory might get set aside for the crashkernel and, therefore, reduces 
your effective guest OS RAM size and reduces the maximum balloon size".

> 
> 2) Adding crashkernel=auto, and the kdumpctl estimate as user space
> program to get a recommended size, then reboot. Removing crashkernel=auto,
> only the kdumpctl estimate to get a recommended size, always reboot.
> In RHEL we will take the 1st option. Are you willing to take the 2nd one
> for Virt platform since you think crashkernel=auto is plain wrong, pure
> ugliness, essentially broken, least sense?

We are talking about upstreaming stuff here and I am wearing my upstream 
hat here. I'm stating (just like people decades ago) that this might not 
be the right approach for upstream, at least not as it stands.

And no, I don't have time to solve problems/implement solutions/upstream 
patches to tackle fundamental issues that have been there for decades.

I'll be happy to help looking into dynamic shrinking of the crashkernel 
size if that approach makes sense. We could even let user space trigger 
that resizing -- without a reboot.

-- 
Thanks,

David / dhildenb


  reply	other threads:[~2021-05-10  8:33 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 119+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-05-07  1:01 incoming Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 01/91] alpha: eliminate old-style function definitions Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 02/91] alpha: csum_partial_copy.c: add function prototypes from <net/checksum.h> Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 03/91] fs/proc/generic.c: fix incorrect pde_is_permanent check Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 04/91] proc: save LOC in __xlate_proc_name() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  2:24   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 05/91] proc: mandate ->proc_lseek in "struct proc_ops" Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 06/91] proc: delete redundant subset=pid check Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 07/91] selftests: proc: test subset=pid Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 08/91] proc/sysctl: fix function name error in comments Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 09/91] include: remove pagemap.h from blkdev.h Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 10/91] kernel.h: drop inclusion in bitmap.h Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 11/91] linux/profile.h: remove unnecessary declaration Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 12/91] kernel/async.c: fix pr_debug statement Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 13/91] kernel/cred.c: make init_groups static Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 14/91] tools: disable -Wno-type-limits Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 15/91] tools: bitmap: sync function declarations with the kernel Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 16/91] tools: sync BITMAP_LAST_WORD_MASK() macro " Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 17/91] arch: rearrange headers inclusion order in asm/bitops for m68k, sh and h8300 Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:02 ` [patch 18/91] lib: extend the scope of small_const_nbits() macro Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 19/91] tools: sync small_const_nbits() macro with the kernel Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 20/91] lib: inline _find_next_bit() wrappers Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 21/91] tools: sync find_next_bit implementation Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 22/91] lib: add fast path for find_next_*_bit() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 23/91] lib: add fast path for find_first_*_bit() and find_last_bit() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 24/91] tools: sync lib/find_bit implementation Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 25/91] MAINTAINERS: add entry for the bitmap API Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 26/91] lib/bch.c: fix a typo in the file bch.c Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 27/91] lib: fix inconsistent indenting in process_bit1() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 28/91] lib/list_sort.c: fix typo in function description Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 29/91] lib/genalloc.c: fix a typo Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 30/91] lib: crc8: pointer to data block should be const Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 31/91] lib: stackdepot: turn depot_lock spinlock to raw_spinlock Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 32/91] lib/percpu_counter: tame kernel-doc compile warning Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 33/91] lib/genalloc: add parameter description to fix doc " Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 34/91] lib: parser: clean up kernel-doc Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 35/91] include/linux/compat.h: remove unneeded declaration from COMPAT_SYSCALL_DEFINEx() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 36/91] checkpatch: warn when missing newline in return sysfs_emit() formats Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:03 ` [patch 37/91] checkpatch: exclude four preprocessor sub-expressions from MACRO_ARG_REUSE Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 38/91] checkpatch: improve ALLOC_ARRAY_ARGS test Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 39/91] kselftest: introduce new epoll test case Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 40/91] fs/epoll: restore waking from ep_done_scan() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 41/91] isofs: fix fall-through warnings for Clang Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 42/91] fs/nilfs2: fix misspellings using codespell tool Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 43/91] nilfs2: fix typos in comments Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 44/91] hpfs: replace one-element array with flexible-array member Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 45/91] do_wait: make PIDTYPE_PID case O(1) instead of O(n) Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 46/91] kernel/fork.c: simplify copy_mm() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 47/91] kernel/fork.c: fix typos Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 48/91] kernel/crash_core: add crashkernel=auto for vmcore creation Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  7:25   ` Linus Torvalds
2021-05-08  3:13     ` Baoquan He
2021-05-08  3:29       ` Baoquan He
2021-05-07  8:16   ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-08  8:51     ` Baoquan He
2021-05-08  9:22       ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-10  4:53         ` Baoquan He
2021-05-10  8:32           ` David Hildenbrand [this message]
2021-05-10 10:43             ` Baoquan He
2021-05-10 11:01               ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-10 11:44                 ` Dave Young
2021-05-10 11:56                   ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-11 13:36                     ` Baoquan He
2021-05-11 16:31                       ` Mike Rapoport
2021-05-11 17:07                         ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-12 14:51                           ` Baoquan He
2021-05-12 15:07                             ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-13  5:04                               ` Baoquan He
2021-05-12 19:03                             ` Kairui Song
2021-05-17  8:22                             ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-18  8:49                               ` Baoquan He
2021-05-18  8:51                                 ` David Hildenbrand
2021-05-18  9:24                                   ` Dave Young
2021-05-12 14:13                         ` Baoquan He
2021-05-12  7:42                     ` Dave Young
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 49/91] kexec: add kexec reboot string Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 50/91] kernel: kexec_file: fix error return code of kexec_calculate_store_digests() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 51/91] kexec: dump kmessage before machine_kexec Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 52/91] gcov: combine common code Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 53/91] gcov: simplify buffer allocation Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 54/91] gcov: use kvmalloc() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 55/91] gcov: clang: drop support for clang-10 and older Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:04 ` [patch 56/91] smp: kernel/panic.c - silence warnings Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 57/91] delayacct: clear right task's flag after blkio completes Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 58/91] gdb: lx-symbols: store the abspath() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 59/91] scripts/gdb: document lx_current is only supported by x86 Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 60/91] scripts/gdb: add lx_current support for arm64 Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 61/91] kernel/resource: make walk_system_ram_res() find all busy IORESOURCE_SYSTEM_RAM resources Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 62/91] kernel/resource: make walk_mem_res() find all busy IORESOURCE_MEM resources Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 63/91] kernel/resource: remove first_lvl / siblings_only logic Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 64/91] kernel/resource: allow region_intersects users to hold resource_lock Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 65/91] kernel/resource: refactor __request_region to allow external locking Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 66/91] kernel/resource: fix locking in request_free_mem_region Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 67/91] selftests: remove duplicate include Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 68/91] kernel/async.c: stop guarding pr_debug() statements Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 69/91] kernel/async.c: remove async_unregister_domain() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 70/91] init/initramfs.c: do unpacking asynchronously Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 71/91] modules: add CONFIG_MODPROBE_PATH Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 72/91] ipc/sem.c: mundane typo fixes Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 73/91] mm: fix some typos and code style problems Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:05 ` [patch 74/91] drivers/char: remove /dev/kmem for good Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 75/91] mm: remove xlate_dev_kmem_ptr() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 76/91] mm/vmalloc: remove vwrite() Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 77/91] arm: print alloc free paths for address in registers Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 78/91] scripts/spelling.txt: add "overlfow" Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 79/91] scripts/spelling.txt: add "diabled" typo Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 80/91] scripts/spelling.txt: add "overflw" Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 81/91] mm/slab.c: fix spelling mistake "disired" -> "desired" Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 82/91] include/linux/pgtable.h: few spelling fixes Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 83/91] kernel/umh.c: fix some spelling mistakes Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 84/91] kernel/user_namespace.c: fix typos Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 85/91] kernel/up.c: fix typo Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 86/91] kernel/sys.c: " Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 87/91] fs: fat: fix spelling typo of values Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 88/91] ipc/sem.c: spelling fix Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 89/91] treewide: remove editor modelines and cruft Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 90/91] mm: fix typos in comments Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  1:06 ` [patch 91/91] " Andrew Morton
2021-05-07  7:12 ` incoming Linus Torvalds

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