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From: Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>
To: David Ahern <dsahern@gmail.com>
Cc: "Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>,
	netdev@vger.kernel.org, prashantbhole.linux@gmail.com,
	jasowang@redhat.com, davem@davemloft.net, jbrouer@redhat.com,
	mst@redhat.com, toshiaki.makita1@gmail.com, daniel@iogearbox.net,
	john.fastabend@gmail.com, ast@kernel.org, kafai@fb.com,
	songliubraving@fb.com, yhs@fb.com, andriin@fb.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf-next 03/12] net: Add IFLA_XDP_EGRESS for XDP programs in the egress path
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2020 11:31:52 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200202113152.321b665f@cakuba.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <e3f52be9-e5c8-ba4f-dd99-ddcc5d13bc91@gmail.com>

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 10:43:58 -0700, David Ahern wrote:
> you are making a lot of assumptions and frankly it's the 'c' word
> (complex) that I want to avoid. I do not believe in the OVS style of
> packet processing - one gigantic program with a bunch of logic and data
> driven flow lookups that affect every packet. I prefer simple, singly
> focused programs logically concatenated to make decisions. Simpler
> management, simpler lifecycle. The scope, scale and lifecycle management
> of VMs/containers is just as important as minimizing the cycles spent
> per packet. XDP in the Tx path is a missing primitive to make life simple.
> 
> As an example, the program on the ingress NICs to the host can be
> nothing more than a demux'er - use the ethernet header and vlan
> (preferably with vlan offload enabled) to do a <vlan,mac> lookup. No
> packet parsing at all at this level. The lookup returns an index of
> where to redirect the packet (e.g., the tap device of a VM). At the same
> time, packets can hit the "slow path" - processing support from the full
> stack when it is needed and still packets end up at the tap device. *IF*
> there is an ingress ACL for that tap device managed by the host, it can
> exist in 1 place - a program and map attached to the tap device limited
> to that tap device's networking function (VMs can have multiple
> connections to different networks with different needs at this point),
> and the program gets run for both XDP fast path and skb slow path.

I think our perspectives will be difficult to reconcile.

My reading is that you look at this from slow software device
perspective. Of which there are few (and already loaded with hacks).
And you want the control plane to be simple rather than performance.

I look at this from HW driver perspective of which there are many.
Saying that it's fine to load TX paths of all drivers with extra 
code, and that it's fine to effectively disable SG in the entire 
system just doesn't compute.

Is that a fair summary of the arguments?

  reply	other threads:[~2020-02-02 19:31 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 58+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-01-23  1:41 [PATCH bpf-next 00/12] Add support for XDP in egress path David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:41 ` [PATCH bpf-next 01/12] net: Add new XDP setup and query commands David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 02/12] net: Add BPF_XDP_EGRESS as a bpf_attach_type David Ahern
2020-01-23 11:34   ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-01-23 21:32     ` David Ahern
2020-01-24  9:49       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-01-24  7:33   ` Martin Lau
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 03/12] net: Add IFLA_XDP_EGRESS for XDP programs in the egress path David Ahern
2020-01-23 11:35   ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-01-23 21:33     ` David Ahern
2020-01-24 15:21       ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-01-24 15:36         ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-01-26  1:43           ` David Ahern
2020-01-26  4:54             ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-02-02 17:59               ` David Ahern
2020-01-26 12:49             ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-01-26 16:38               ` David Ahern
2020-01-26 22:17               ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-01-28 14:13                 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-01-30 14:45                   ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-02-01 16:03                     ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-02 17:48                       ` David Ahern
2020-01-26 22:11             ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-01-27  4:03               ` David Ahern
2020-01-27 14:16                 ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-01-28  3:43                   ` David Ahern
2020-01-28 13:57                     ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-02-01 16:24                       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-01 17:08                         ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-02-01 20:05                           ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-02  4:15                             ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-02-03 19:56                               ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-03 20:13                               ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-03 22:15                                 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-02-04 11:00                                   ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-04 17:09                                     ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-02-05 15:30                                       ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-02 17:45                           ` David Ahern
2020-02-02 19:12                             ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-02-02 17:43                       ` David Ahern
2020-02-02 19:31                         ` Jakub Kicinski [this message]
2020-02-02 21:51                           ` David Ahern
2020-02-01 15:59             ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-02-02 17:54               ` David Ahern
2020-02-03 20:09                 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 04/12] net: core: rename netif_receive_generic_xdp() to do_generic_xdp_core() David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 05/12] tuntap: check tun_msg_ctl type at necessary places David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 06/12] tun: move shared functions to if_tun.h David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 07/12] vhost_net: user tap recvmsg api to access ptr ring David Ahern
2020-01-23  8:26   ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 08/12] tuntap: remove usage of ptr ring in vhost_net David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 09/12] tun: set egress XDP program David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 10/12] tun: run XDP program in tx path David Ahern
2020-01-23  8:23   ` Michael S. Tsirkin
2020-01-24 13:36     ` Prashant Bhole
2020-01-24 13:44     ` Prashant Bhole
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 11/12] libbpf: Add egress XDP support David Ahern
2020-01-23  1:42 ` [PATCH bpf-next 12/12] samples/bpf: xdp1, add " David Ahern

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