From: Jiri Benc <jbenc@redhat.com>
To: Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com>
Cc: "David Ahern" <dsahern@gmail.com>,
"Hangbin Liu" <haliu@redhat.com>,
"Stephen Hemminger" <stephen@networkplumber.org>,
"Daniel Borkmann" <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
"Alexei Starovoitov" <ast@kernel.org>,
"Martin KaFai Lau" <kafai@fb.com>,
"Song Liu" <songliubraving@fb.com>, "Yonghong Song" <yhs@fb.com>,
"David Miller" <davem@davemloft.net>,
"Jesper Dangaard Brouer" <brouer@redhat.com>,
Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
"Andrii Nakryiko" <andrii@kernel.org>,
"Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support
Date: Tue, 3 Nov 2020 09:42:24 +0100 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20201103094224.6de1470d@redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAEf4BzYupkUqfgRx62uq3gk86dHTfB00ZtLS7eyW0kKzBGxmKQ@mail.gmail.com>
On Mon, 2 Nov 2020 22:58:06 -0800, Andrii Nakryiko wrote:
> But I don't think I got a real answer as to what's the exact reason
> against the submodule. Like what "inappropriate" even means in this
> case? Jesper's security argument so far was the only objective
> criteria, as far as I can tell.
It's the fundamental objection. Distributions in general have the "no
bundled libraries" policy. It is sometimes annoying but it helps to
understand that the policy is not a whim of distros, it's coming from
years of experience with package maintenance for security and stability.
> But I also see that using libbpf through submodule gives iproute2
> exact control over which version of libbpf is being used. And that
> does not depend at all on any specific Linux distribution, its
> version, LTS vs non-LTS, etc. iproute2 will just work the same across
> all of them. So matches your stated goals very directly and
> explicitly.
If you take this route, the end result would be all dependencies for
all projects being included as submodules and bundled. At the first
sight, this sounds easier for the developers. Why bother with dynamic
linking at all? Everything can be linked statically.
The result would be nightmare for both distros and users. No timely
security updates possible, critical bugs not being fixed in some
programs, etc. There is enough experience with this kind of setup to
conclude it is not the right way to go.
Yes, dynamic linking is initially more work for developers of both apps
and libraries. However, it pays off over time - there's no need to keep
track of security and other important fixes in the dependencies, it
comes for free from the distro work.
Btw, taking the bundling to the extreme, every app could bundle its own
well tested and compatible kernel version and be run in a VM. This
might sound far fetched but there were actual attempts to do that. It
didn't take off; I think part of the reason was that the Linux kernel
is very good in keeping its APIs stable.
And I'm convinced this is the way to go for libraries, too: put an
emphasis on API stability. Make it easy to get consumed and updated
under the hood. Everybody wins this way.
Jiri
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-11-03 8:42 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 167+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-10-23 3:38 [PATCH iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 14:34 ` David Ahern
2020-10-25 15:13 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-25 22:12 ` David Ahern
2020-10-26 8:56 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-26 15:15 ` David Ahern
2020-10-27 2:58 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-24 0:21 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-25 15:11 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-26 8:10 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-23 3:38 ` [PATCH iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 13:25 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-10-28 21:17 ` [PATCHv2 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Alexei Starovoitov
2020-10-28 23:02 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:06 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 2:20 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:45 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 3:00 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 3:17 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 10:26 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 10:51 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-10-29 2:27 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:33 ` David Ahern
2020-10-29 2:46 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:34 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-10-29 2:50 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 11:38 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-10-29 20:30 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-10-29 2:33 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:26 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-02 15:37 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 5:54 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-03 17:32 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 8:51 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-04 11:09 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 11:40 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-02 15:41 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 5:48 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-03 17:19 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 8:22 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-05 2:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 7:51 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-05 15:25 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 15:57 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-05 16:02 ` David Ahern
2020-11-06 0:56 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-06 0:41 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-10-29 15:11 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-02 15:47 ` [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support David Ahern
2020-11-03 6:58 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-03 8:42 ` Jiri Benc [this message]
2020-11-03 17:45 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 17:48 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-03 8:46 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-03 17:35 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 17:47 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-03 18:23 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-03 22:32 ` David Ahern
2020-11-03 22:55 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 1:40 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 2:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 9:28 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-05 2:39 ` David Ahern
2020-11-04 2:17 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-04 3:11 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 10:01 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-04 10:21 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-04 11:20 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 13:12 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-04 19:17 ` Jakub Kicinski
2020-11-04 20:43 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-04 22:24 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-05 20:14 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-05 3:48 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 20:53 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-05 3:19 ` David Ahern
2020-11-05 14:05 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2020-11-05 21:01 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 15:27 ` Jamal Hadi Salim
2020-11-06 21:25 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-10 12:47 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-11 0:53 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-11 11:31 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-11 18:08 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-05 20:45 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 9:00 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-06 21:07 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-04 21:15 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-04 22:10 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-04 22:35 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-04 23:05 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-05 20:19 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 8:44 ` Jiri Benc
2020-11-06 20:57 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 21:04 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-06 23:25 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-06 23:30 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-07 0:41 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-07 1:07 ` Andrii Nakryiko
2020-11-06 23:38 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 1:45 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-10 4:09 ` David Ahern
2020-11-11 0:47 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-11 11:02 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-11 15:06 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-11 16:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-12 22:36 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-12 23:20 ` Daniel Borkmann
2020-11-13 0:04 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-13 0:40 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-13 3:55 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-14 3:26 ` David Ahern
2020-11-16 4:30 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 4:33 ` David Ahern
2020-11-09 7:07 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-11-14 3:24 ` David Ahern
2020-11-16 3:55 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-09 7:08 ` [PATCHv4 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 1/5] configure: add check_libbpf() for later " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: rename bpf.c to bpf_legacy.c Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 6:53 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-16 7:19 ` [PATCHv5 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-16 14:54 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
2020-11-16 23:29 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-11-17 2:37 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-17 3:19 ` Hangbin Liu
2020-11-17 18:27 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-17 11:56 ` Edward Cree
2020-11-17 3:38 ` David Ahern
2020-11-17 18:19 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-16 16:45 ` Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 " Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 1/5] iproute2: add check_libbpf() and get_libbpf_version() Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 2/5] lib: make ipvrf able to use libbpf and fix function name conflicts Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:11 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 3/5] lib: add libbpf support Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:12 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 4/5] examples/bpf: move struct bpf_elf_map defined maps to legacy folder Hangbin Liu
2020-11-23 13:12 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 5/5] examples/bpf: add bpf examples with BTF defined maps Hangbin Liu
2020-11-25 5:28 ` [PATCHv6 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support David Ahern
2020-11-25 5:30 ` patchwork-bot+netdevbpf
2020-11-29 6:16 ` [PATCH " Stephen Hemminger
2020-11-29 6:22 ` Greg KH
2020-11-30 11:39 ` Michal Kubecek
2020-11-29 17:33 ` Alexei Starovoitov
2020-11-29 19:41 ` David Ahern
2020-11-30 11:04 ` Toke Høiland-Jørgensen
2020-12-01 14:22 ` Jesper Dangaard Brouer
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