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Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:53:51 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 10 Nov 2020 16:53:48 -0800 From: Alexei Starovoitov To: Edward Cree Cc: Jamal Hadi Salim , David Ahern , Daniel Borkmann , Hangbin Liu , Andrii Nakryiko , Stephen Hemminger , Alexei Starovoitov , Martin KaFai Lau , Song Liu , Yonghong Song , David Miller , Jesper Dangaard Brouer , Networking , bpf , Jiri Benc , Andrii Nakryiko , Toke =?utf-8?Q?H=C3=B8iland-J=C3=B8rgensen?= Subject: Re: [PATCHv3 iproute2-next 0/5] iproute2: add libbpf support Message-ID: <20201111005348.v3dtugzstf6ofnqi@ast-mbp> References: <3306d19c-346d-fcbc-bd48-f141db26a2aa@gmail.com> <71af5d23-2303-d507-39b5-833dd6ea6a10@gmail.com> <20201103225554.pjyuuhdklj5idk3u@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com> <20201104021730.GK2408@dhcp-12-153.nay.redhat.com> <20201104031145.nmtggnzomfee4fma@ast-mbp.dhcp.thefacebook.com> <2e8ba0be-51bf-9060-e1f7-2148fbaf0f1d@iogearbox.net> <1118ef27-3302-d077-021a-43aa8d8f3ebb@mojatatu.com> <11c18a26-72af-2e0d-a411-3148cfbc91be@solarflare.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <11c18a26-72af-2e0d-a411-3148cfbc91be@solarflare.com> Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: netdev@vger.kernel.org On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 12:47:28PM +0000, Edward Cree wrote: > On 05/11/2020 14:05, Jamal Hadi Salim wrote: > > On 2020-11-04 10:19 p.m., David Ahern wrote: > > > > [..] > >> Similarly, it is not realistic or user friendly to *require* general > >> Linux users to constantly chase latest versions of llvm, clang, dwarves, > >> bcc, bpftool, libbpf, (I am sure I am missing more) > > > > 2cents feedback from a dabbler in ebpf on user experience: > > > > What David described above *has held me back*. > If we're doing 2¢... I gave up on trying to keep ebpf_asmabreast >  of all the latest BPF and BTF features quite some time ago, since >  there was rarely any documentation and the specifications for BPF >  elves were basically "whatever latest clang does". > The bpf developers seem to have taken the position that since >  they're in control of clang, libbpf and the kernel, they can make >  their changes across all three and not bother with the specs that >  would allow other toolchains to interoperate.  As a result of >  which, that belief has now become true — while ebpf_asm will >  still work for what it always did (simple XDP programs), it is >  unlikely ever to gain CO-RE support so is no longer a live >  alternative to clang for BPF in general. > Of course the bpf developers are well within their rights to not >  care about that.  But I think it illustrates why having to >  interoperate with systems outside their control and mix-and-match >  versioning of various components provides external discipline that >  is sorely needed if the BPF ecosystem is to remain healthy. I think thriving public bpf projects, startups and established companies that are obviously outside of control of few people that argue here would disagree with your assessment.