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From: Paul Moore <paul@paul-moore.com>
To: Steve Grubb <sgrubb@redhat.com>
Cc: Richard Guy Briggs <rgb@redhat.com>,
	containers@lists.linux-foundation.org, linux-api@vger.kernel.org,
	Linux-Audit Mailing List <linux-audit@redhat.com>,
	linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org,
	LKML <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>,
	netdev@vger.kernel.org, netfilter-devel@vger.kernel.org,
	omosnace@redhat.com, dhowells@redhat.com, simo@redhat.com,
	Eric Paris <eparis@parisplace.org>,
	Serge Hallyn <serge@hallyn.com>,
	ebiederm@xmission.com, nhorman@tuxdriver.com,
	Dan Walsh <dwalsh@redhat.com>,
	mpatel@redhat.com
Subject: Re: [PATCH ghak90 V7 20/21] audit: add capcontid to set contid outside init_user_ns
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 2019 19:37:47 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHC9VhQ6Jq5kfrBZ21t9oFR9pYe5gxE2FxLPq27PcSCz4oFauA@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <3677995.NTHC7m0fHc@x2>

On Thu, Oct 31, 2019 at 10:51 AM Steve Grubb <sgrubb@redhat.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, October 30, 2019 6:03:20 PM EDT Richard Guy Briggs wrote:
> > > Also, for the record, removing the audit loginuid from procfs is not
> > > something to take lightly, if at all; like it or not, it's part of the
> > > kernel API.
>
> It can also be used by tools to iterate processes related to one user or
> session. I use this in my Intrusion Prevention System which will land in
> audit user space at some point in the future.

Let's try to stay focused on the audit container ID functionality; I
fear if we start bringing in other unrelated issues we are never going
to land these patches.

> > Oh, I'm quite aware of how important this change is and it was discussed
> > with Steve Grubb who saw the concern and value of considering such a
> > disruptive change.
>
> Actually, I advocated for syscall. I think the gist of Eric's idea was that /
> proc is the intersection of many nasty problems. By relying on it, you can't
> simplify the API to reduce the complexity.

I guess complexity is relative in a sense, but reading and writing a
number from a file in procfs seems awfully simple to me.

> Almost no program actually needs
> access to /proc. ps does. But almost everything else is happy without it. For
> example, when you setup chroot jails, you may have to add /dev/random or /
> dev/null, but almost never /proc. What does force you to add /proc is any
> entry point daemon like sshd because it needs to set the loginuid. If we
> switch away from /proc, then sshd or crond will no longer /require/ procfs to
> be available which again simplifies the system design.

It's not that simple, there are plenty of container use cases beyond
ps which require procfs:

Most LSM aware applications require procfs to view and manage some LSM
state (e.g. /proc/self/attr).

System containers, containers that run their own init/systemd/etc.,
require a working procfs.

Nested container orchestrators often run in system containers, which
require a working procfs (see above).

I'm sure there are plenty others, but these are the ones that came
immediately to mind.

-- 
paul moore
www.paul-moore.com

  reply index

Thread overview: 69+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-09-19  1:22 [PATCH ghak90 V7 00/21] audit: implement container identifier Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 01/21] audit: collect audit task parameters Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 02/21] audit: add container id Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 03/21] audit: read container ID of a process Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 04/21] audit: convert to contid list to check for orch/engine ownership Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-26 14:46   ` Neil Horman
2019-10-25 20:00     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-28 12:20       ` Neil Horman
2019-10-11  0:38   ` Paul Moore
2019-10-25 21:00     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-11-08 18:26       ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 05/21] audit: log drop of contid on exit of last task Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:38   ` Paul Moore
2019-10-25 19:43     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 06/21] audit: contid limit of 32k imposed to avoid DoS Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-27 12:51   ` Neil Horman
2019-10-11  0:38     ` Paul Moore
2019-10-24 21:23       ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-11-08 17:49         ` Paul Moore
2019-10-25 20:15     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 07/21] audit: log container info of syscalls Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 08/21] audit: add contid support for signalling the audit daemon Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:39   ` Paul Moore
2019-10-25 19:20     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-11-08 17:41       ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 09/21] audit: add support for non-syscall auxiliary records Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 10/21] audit: add containerid support for user records Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 11/21] audit: add containerid filtering Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 12/21] audit: add support for containerid to network namespaces Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:39   ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 13/21] audit: NETFILTER_PKT: record each container ID associated with a netNS Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:39   ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 14/21] audit: contid check descendancy and nesting Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:40   ` Paul Moore
2019-10-24 22:08     ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-30 20:32       ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 15/21] sched: pull task_is_descendant into kernel/sched/core.c Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:40   ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 16/21] audit: add support for contid set/get by netlink Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:40   ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 17/21] audit: add support for loginuid/sessionid " Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:40   ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 18/21] audit: track container nesting Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-11  0:40   ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 19/21] audit: check cont depth Richard Guy Briggs
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 20/21] audit: add capcontid to set contid outside init_user_ns Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-19  1:39   ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-21 19:53     ` Paul Moore
2019-10-21 21:38       ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-21 21:43         ` Paul Moore
2019-10-21 23:57           ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-22  0:31             ` Paul Moore
2019-10-22 12:13               ` Neil Horman
2019-10-22 14:04                 ` Paul Moore
2019-10-22 20:06                 ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-22 14:27               ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-22 14:34                 ` Paul Moore
2019-10-24 21:00               ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-30 20:27                 ` Paul Moore
2019-10-30 22:03                   ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-10-31 13:59                     ` Paul Moore
2019-10-31 14:50                     ` Steve Grubb
2019-10-31 23:37                       ` Paul Moore [this message]
2019-11-01  1:02                       ` Duncan Roe
2019-11-01 15:09                       ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-11-01 15:13                         ` Steve Grubb
2019-11-01 15:21                           ` Richard Guy Briggs
2019-11-01 16:22                         ` Paul Moore
2019-09-19  1:22 ` [PATCH ghak90 V7 21/21] audit: add proc interface for capcontid Richard Guy Briggs

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