From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=3.0 tests=DKIM_INVALID,DKIM_SIGNED, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS,MAILING_LIST_MULTI,SPF_HELO_NONE,SPF_PASS, USER_AGENT_SANE_1 autolearn=no autolearn_force=no version=3.4.0 Received: from mail.kernel.org (mail.kernel.org [198.145.29.99]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D840C2D0DB for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:36:51 +0000 (UTC) Received: from lists.gnu.org (lists.gnu.org [209.51.188.17]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mail.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3EBA421D7D for ; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 19:36:51 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dkim=fail reason="signature verification failed" (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="iDvcSXYK" DMARC-Filter: OpenDMARC Filter v1.3.2 mail.kernel.org 3EBA421D7D Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; dmarc=fail (p=none dis=none) header.from=redhat.com Authentication-Results: mail.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Received: from localhost ([::1]:60218 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iuiHa-0006Bu-CM for qemu-devel@archiver.kernel.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 14:36:50 -0500 Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43342) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1iugzD-0001PV-9r for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:13:48 -0500 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iugzA-0004Gd-Ay for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:13:45 -0500 Received: from us-smtp-2.mimecast.com ([205.139.110.61]:21771 helo=us-smtp-delivery-1.mimecast.com) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1iugzA-0004Cf-69 for qemu-devel@nongnu.org; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:13:44 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1579803222; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: content-transfer-encoding:content-transfer-encoding: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references:autocrypt:autocrypt; bh=47Zx6Be1/CXJq0HEZ5xXpdo8looUyl5x3WQwmQ5V4uM=; b=iDvcSXYKXezcaw9V0LVT5oiE3MlgxnSRvm4vfZxeGJ5X+M8nYpAzaraq94n9Y/ml4dcSgc gnezonk+FeSGqMJjSMOMww/GG861p6pDUZVV2yJO4cVsNGVCzu1Iwj+3w0ZpEBPvQMx76f 2fYQdBp8ifFG2fBSPMj/+Dzy0IYLnII= Received: from mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (mimecast-mx01.redhat.com [209.132.183.4]) (Using TLS) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP id us-mta-354-eA2wD17JMX639sTz2RlMfw-1; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:13:40 -0500 Received: from smtp.corp.redhat.com (int-mx04.intmail.prod.int.phx2.redhat.com [10.5.11.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mimecast-mx01.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 070748017CC; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:13:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.10.125.4] (ovpn-125-4.rdu2.redhat.com [10.10.125.4]) by smtp.corp.redhat.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F23E5DA87; Thu, 23 Jan 2020 18:13:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Re: Making QEMU easier for management tools and applications To: =?UTF-8?Q?Daniel_P=2e_Berrang=c3=a9?= References: <20191224130035.GC2710539@redhat.com> <20200123102705.GC657556@redhat.com> From: John Snow Autocrypt: addr=jsnow@redhat.com; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFTKefwBEAChvwqYC6saTzawbih87LqBYq0d5A8jXYXaiFMV/EvMSDqqY4EY6whXliNO IYzhgrPEe7ZmPxbCSe4iMykjhwMh5byIHDoPGDU+FsQty2KXuoxto+ZdrP9gymAgmyqdk3aV vzzmCa3cOppcqKvA0Kqr10UeX/z4OMVV390V+DVWUvzXpda45/Sxup57pk+hyY52wxxjIqef rj8u5BN93s5uCVTus0oiVA6W+iXYzTvVDStMFVqnTxSxlpZoH5RGKvmoWV3uutByQyBPHW2U 1Y6n6iEZ9MlP3hcDqlo0S8jeP03HaD4gOqCuqLceWF5+2WyHzNfylpNMFVi+Hp0H/nSDtCvQ ua7j+6Pt7q5rvqgHvRipkDDVsjqwasuNc3wyoHexrBeLU/iJBuDld5iLy+dHXoYMB3HmjMxj 3K5/8XhGrDx6BDFeO3HIpi3u2z1jniB7RtyVEtdupED6lqsDj0oSz9NxaOFZrS3Jf6z/kHIf h42mM9Sx7+s4c07N2LieUxcfqhFTaa/voRibF4cmkBVUhOD1AKXNfhEsTvmcz9NbUchCkcvA T9119CrsxfVsE7bXiGvdXnzyGLXdsoosjzwacKdOrVaDmN3Uy+SHiQXo6TlkSdV0XH2PUxTM LsBFIO9qXO43Ai6J6iPAP/01l8fuZfpJE0/L/c25yyaND7xA3wARAQABtCpKb2huIFNub3cg KEpvaG4gSHVzdG9uKSA8anNub3dAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT6JAlQEEwECAD4CGwMCHgECF4AFCwkI BwMFFQoJCAsFFgIDAQAWIQT665cRoSz0dYEvGPKIqQZNGDVh6wUCXF392gUJC1Xq3gAKCRCI qQZNGDVh6558D/9pM4pu4njX5aT6uUW3vAmbWLF1jfPxiTQgSHAnm9EBMZED/fsvkzj97clo LN7JKmbYZNgJmR01A7flG45V4iOR/249qAfaVuD+ZzZi1R4jFzr13WS+IEdn0hYp9ITndb7R ezW+HGu6/rP2PnfmDnNowgJu6Dp6IUEabq8SXXwGHXZPuMIrsXJxUdKJdGnh1o2u7271yNO7 J9PEMuMDsgjsdnaGtv7aQ9CECtXvBleAc06pLW2HU10r5wQyBMZGITemJdBhhdzGmbHAL0M6 vKi/bafHRWqfMqOAdDkv3Jg4arl2NCG/uNateR1z5e529+UlB4XVAQT+f5T/YyI65DFTY940 il3aZhA8u788jZEPMXmt94u7uPZbEYp7V0jt68SrTaOgO7NaXsboXFjwEa42Ug5lB5d5/Qdp 1AITUv0NJ51kKwhHL1dEagGeloIsGVQILmpS0MLdtitBHqZLsnJkRvtMaxo47giyBlv2ewmq tIGTlVLxHx9xkc9aVepOuiGlZaZB72c9AvZs9rKaAjgU2UfJHlB/Hr4uSk/1EY0IgMv4vnsG 1sA5gvS7A4T4euu0PqHtn2sZEWDrk5RDbw0yIb53JYdXboLFmFXKzVASfKh2ZVeXRBlQQSJi 3PBR1GzzqORlfryby7mkY857xzCI2NkIkD2eq+HhzFTfFOTdGrkCDQRUynn8ARAAwbhP45BE d/zAMBPV2dk2WwIwKRSKULElP3kXpcuiDWYQob3UODUUqClO+3aXVRndaNmZX9WbzGYexVo3 5j+CVBCGr3DlU8AL9pp3KQ3SJihWcDed1LSmUf8tS+10d6mdGxDqgnd/OWU214isvhgWZtZG MM/Xj7cx5pERIiP+jqu7PT1cibcfcEKhPjYdyV1QnLtKNGrTg/UMKaL+qkWBUI/8uBoa0HLs NH63bXsRtNAG8w6qG7iiueYZUIXKc4IHINUguqYQJVdSe+u8b2N5XNhDSEUhdlqFYraJvX6d TjxMTW5lzVG2KjztfErRNSUmu2gezbw1/CV0ztniOKDA7mkQi6UIUDRh4LxRm5mflfKiCyDQ L6P/jxHBxFv+sIgjuLrfNhIC1p3z9rvCh+idAVJgtHtYl8p6GAVrF+4xQV2zZH45tgmHo2+S JsLPjXZtWVsWANpepXnesyabWtNAV4qQB7/SfC77zZwsVX0OOY2Qc+iohmXo8U7DgXVDgl/R /5Qgfnlv0/3rOdMt6ZPy5LJr8D9LJmcP0RvX98jyoBOf06Q9QtEwJsNLCOCo2LKNL71DNjZr nXEwjUH66CXiRXDbDKprt71BiSTitkFhGGU88XCtrp8R9yArXPf4MN+wNYBjfT7K29gWTzxt 9DYQIvEf69oZD5Z5qHYGp031E90AEQEAAYkCPAQYAQIAJgIbDBYhBPrrlxGhLPR1gS8Y8oip Bk0YNWHrBQJcXf3JBQkLVerNAAoJEIipBk0YNWHrU1AP/1FOK2SBGbyhHa5vDHuf47fgLipC e0/h1E0vdSonzlhPxuZoQ47FjzG9uOhqqQG6/PqtWs/FJIyz8aGG4aV+pSA/9Ko3/2ND8MSY ZflWs7Y8Peg08Ro01GTHFITjEUgHpTpHiT6TNcZB5aZNJ8jqCtW5UlqvXXbVeSTmO70ZiVtc vUJbpvSxYmzhFfZWaXIPcNcKWL1rnmnzs67lDhMLdkYVf91aml/XtyMUlfB8Iaejzud9Ht3r C0pA9MG57pLblX7okEshxAC0+tUdY2vANWFeX0mgqRt1GSuG9XM9H/cKP1czfUV/FgaWo/Ya fM4eMhUAlL/y+/AJxxumPhBXftM4yuiktp2JMezoIMJI9fmhjfWDw7+2jVrx9ze1joLakFD1 rVAoHxVJ7ORfQ4Ni/qWbQm3T6qQkSMt4N/scNsMczibdTPxU7qtwQwIeFOOc3wEwmJ9Qe3ox TODQ0agXiWVj0OXYCHJ6MxTDswtyTGQW+nUHpKBgHGwUaR6d1kr/LK9+5LpOfRlK9VRfEu7D PGNiRkr8Abp8jHsrBqQWfUS1bAf62bq6XUel0kUCtb7qCq024aOczXYWPFpJFX+nhp4d7NeH Edq+wlC13sBSiSHC7T5yssJ+7JPa2ATLlSKhEvBsLe2TsSTTtFlA0nBclqhfJXzimiuge9qU E40lvMWBuQINBFTKimUBEADDbJ+pQ5M4QBMWkaWImRj7c598xIZ37oKM6rGaSnuB1SVb7YCr Ci2MTwQcrQscA2jm80O8VFqWk+/XsEp62dty47GVwSfdGje/3zv3VTH2KhOCKOq3oPP5ZXWY rz2d2WnTvx++o6lU7HLHDEC3NGLYNLkL1lyVxLhnhvcMxkf1EGA1DboEcMgnJrNB1pGP27ww cSfvdyPGseV+qZZa8kuViDga1oxmnYDxFKMGLxrClqHrRt8geQL1Wj5KFM5hFtGTK4da5lPn wGNd6/CINMeCT2AWZY5ySz7/tSZe5F22vPvVZGoPgQicYWdNc3ap7+7IKP86JNjmec/9RJcz jvrYjJdiqBVldXou72CtDydKVLVSKv8c2wBDJghYZitfYIaL8cTvQfUHRYTfo0n5KKSec8Vo vjDuxmdbOUBA+SkRxqmneP5OxGoZ92VusrwWCjry8HRsNdR+2T+ClDCO6Wpihu4V3CPkQwTy eCuMHPAT0ka5paTwLrnZIxsdfnjUa96T10vzmQgAxpbbiaLvgKJ8+76OPdDnhddyxd2ldYfw RkF5PEGg3mqZnYKNNBtwjvX49SAvgETQvLzQ8IKVgZS0m4z9qHHvtc1BsQnFfe+LJOFjzZr7 CrDNJMqk1JTHYsSi2JcN3vY32WMezXSQ0TzeMK4kdnclSQyp/h23GWod5QARAQABiQRbBBgB AgAmAhsCFiEE+uuXEaEs9HWBLxjyiKkGTRg1YesFAlxd/coFCQtV2mQCKcFdIAQZAQIABgUC VMqKZQAKCRB974EGqvw5DiJoEACLmuiRq9ifvOh5DyBFwRS7gvA14DsGQngmC57EzV0EFcfM XVi1jX5OtwUyUe0Az5r6lHyyHDsDsIpLKBlWrYCeLpUhRR3oy181T7UNxvujGFeTkzvLAOo6 Hs3b8Wv9ARg+7acRYkQRNY7k0GIJ6YZz149tRyRKAy/vSjsaB9Lt0NOd1wf2EQMKwRVELwJD y0AazGn+0PRP7Bua2YbtxaBmhBBDb2tPpwn8U9xdckB4Vlft9lcWNsC/18Gi9bpjd9FSbdH/ sOUI+3ToWYENeoT4IP09wn6EkgWaJS3nAUN/MOycNej2i4Yhy2wDDSKyTAnVkSSSoXk+tK91 HfqtokbDanB8daP+K5LgoiWHzjfWzsxA2jKisI4YCGjrYQzTyGOT6P6u6SEeoEx10865B/zc 8/vN50kncdjYz2naacIDEKQNZlnGLsGkpCbfmfdi3Zg4vuWKNdWr0wGUzDUcpqW0y/lUXna+ 6uyQShX5e4JD2UPuf9WAQ9HtgSAkaDd4O1I2J41sleePzZOVB3DmYgy+ECRJJ5nw3ihdxpgc y/v3lfcJaqiyCv0PF+K/gSOvwhH7CbVqARmptT7yhhxqFdaYWo2Z2ksuKyoKSRMFCXQY5oac uTmyPIT4STFyUQFeqSCWDum/NFNoSKhmItw2Td+4VSJHShRVbg39KNFPZ7mXYAkQiKkGTRg1 YesWJA/+PV3qDUtPNEGwjVvjQqHSbrBy94tu6gJvPHgGPtRDYvxnCaJsmgiC0pGB2KFRsnfl 2zBNBEWF/XwsI081jQE5UO60GKmHTputChLXpVobyuc+lroG2YhknXRBAV969SLnZR4BS/1s Gi046gOXfaKYatve8BiZr5it5Foq3FMPDNgZMit1H9Dk8rkKFfDMRf8EGS/Z+TmyEsIf99H7 TH3n7lco8qO81fSFwkh4pvo2kWRFYTC5vsIVQ+GqVUp+W1DZJHxX8LwWuF1AzUt4MUTtNAvy TXl5EgsmoY9mpNNL7ZnW65oG63nEP5KNiybvuQJzXVxR8eqzOh2Mod4nHg3PE7UCd3DvLNsn GXFRo44WyT/G2lArBtjpkut7bDm0i1nENABy2UgS+1QvdmgNu6aEZxdNthwRjUhuuvCCDMA4 rCDQYyakH2tJNQgkXkeLodBKF4bHiBbuwj0E39S9wmGgg+q4OTnAO/yhQGknle7a7G5xHBwE i0HjnLoJP5jDcoMTabZTIazXmJz3pKM11HYJ5/ZsTIf3ZRJJKIvXJpbmcAPVwTZII6XxiJdh RSSX4Mvd5pL/+5WI6NTdW6DMfigTtdd85fe6PwBNVJL2ZvBfsBJZ5rxg1TOH3KLsYBqBTgW2 glQofxhkJhDEcvjLhe3Y2BlbCWKOmvM8XS9TRt0OwUs= Message-ID: <0ba8f074-fde8-a0f6-5880-d2f5eabeca98@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 2020 13:13:33 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20200123102705.GC657556@redhat.com> Content-Language: en-US X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.79 on 10.5.11.14 X-MC-Unique: eA2wD17JMX639sTz2RlMfw-1 X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 205.139.110.61 X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Kevin Wolf , Peter Maydell , "Denis V. Lunev" , Stefan Hajnoczi , qemu-devel , Markus Armbruster , =?UTF-8?Q?Marc-Andr=c3=a9_Lureau?= , Paolo Bonzini , Dominik Csapak Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: "Qemu-devel" On 1/23/20 5:27 AM, Daniel P. Berrang=C3=A9 wrote: > On Wed, Jan 22, 2020 at 05:42:10PM -0500, John Snow wrote: >> >> >> On 12/24/19 8:00 AM, Daniel P. Berrang=C3=A9 wrote: >>> Based on experiance in libvirt, this is an even larger job than (4), >>> as the feature set here is huge. Much of it directly ties into the >>> config problem, as to deal with SELinux / namespace setup the code >>> needs to understand what resources to provide access to. This >>> requires a way to express 100% coverage of all QEMU configuration >>> in use & analyse it to determine what resources it implies. So this >>> ties strongly into QAPI-ification completion. >> >> Is it totally bonkers to suggest that QEMU provide a method of digesting >> a given configuration and returning a configuration object that a >> standalone jailer can use? >> >> So we have a QEMU manager, the generic jailer, and QEMU. QEMU and the >> manager cooperate to produce the jailing configuration, and the jailer >> does what we ask it to. >=20 > It isn't clear what you mean by "QEMU" here. If this QEMU, the system > emulator process, then this is the untrustworthy part of the stack, > so the jailer must not use any data that QEMU is providing. In fact > during startup the jailer does its work before QEMU even exists. >=20 I worried about this. Hence the "Nuts?" ask. It sounds like the ultimate problem is nobody can know -- except QEMU -- what permissions are truly needed for a given configuration. Even if we had an immaculate API, how would anyone except QEMU developers know? Trial and error, perhaps, on behalf of the jailer developers. Trial and error is not the greatest feature of a security mechanism. Clearly, a lot of effort has been spent to get libvirt's implementation correct, but Stefan raises the idea that other projects have need of understanding how to map QEMU configurations to appropriate jails. Worse, it could still change on a whim. We (QEMU developers) probably are not used to thinking of permitted syscall lists as ABI that we strive to maintain. It can change. How do we make this easier in a way that doesn't trust QEMU? I feel like QEMU needs to provide *some* kind of information that can be used to build better jailing configurations... > There are aspects to the confinement that use / rely on knowledge that > QEMU doesn't normally have, or are expressed in a different way that > which QEMU uses, or needs to take a different imlpementation approach to > that which QEMU normally has. >=20 > For networking, for example, from QEMU's config POV, there's just a > TAP file descriptor. There are then a huge number of ways in which > that TAP FD has been connected to the network in the host that are > invisible to QEMU. Plain bridge, openvswitch bridge, macvtap device > all with varying configs. Knowledge of this is relevant to the manager > process and the jailer but irrelevant to QEMU. >=20 > When configuring disks we have technical issues. For example we need > to identify the full backing chain and grant the appropriate permissions > on this. Even if there was a libqemublock.so, libvirt would not use this > because the QEMU storage code design is not reliable & minimal enough. > For example to just query the backing file, QEMU opens the qcow2 and > parses all the data about it, building up L1/L2 tables, and other > data structures involved. It is trivial to create qcow2 files which > result in both memory and CPU denial of service merely from opening > the file. Libvirt's approach to this is minimalist just having a > data table of offsets to the key fields in each file format. So we > can extract the backing file & its format without reading anything > else from the disk. >=20 > When configuring chardevs there is a choice of how to do it - we > could just pass the UNIX socket path in, or we could create the > UNIX socket ourselves & pass in the pre-opened FD. Both are equally > functional from QEMU's POV and the end user's POV, but passing a > pre-opened FD is more convenient for libvirt's needs as it allowed > for race-free startups sychronization between libvirt & QEMU, or > rather QMP. The different options here though, have different > needs on the jailer, because extra steps are needed when passing > pre-opened FD to get the SELinux labelling right. QEMU doesn't > know which approach the mgmt app will want to take, so we can't > ask QEMU how the jailer should be configured - the mgmt app needs > to make that decision. >=20 > Essentially we have 2 configuration formats - the high level one > that the mgmt app layer uses & the low level one that QEMU uses. > The component in the stack which maps between the two config > formats, is that one that has the knowledge to configure the > jailer. This isn't QEMU. It is whatever is immediately above QEMU, > currently libvirt, but something conceptually equivalent to the > role libvirt's QEMU driver impl fills. >=20 > Regards, > Daniel >=20 --=20 =E2=80=94js