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[67.149.105.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u21sm2515209qtq.11.2021.04.09.12.37.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 09 Apr 2021 12:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.40.0.2.32\)) Subject: Re: Mac OS real USB device support issue From: Programmingkid In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 15:37:40 -0400 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <967C172F-B708-40A2-862E-9948F0844133@gmail.com> <725920c9-c990-d35a-4958-4df0c45c62@eik.bme.hu> <0429B873-DD42-4769-BCDF-25A7720D9C44@gmail.com> To: Howard Spoelstra X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.40.0.2.32) Received-SPF: pass client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::733; envelope-from=programmingkidx@gmail.com; helo=mail-qk1-x733.google.com X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: QEMU devel list , gerd@kraxel.org Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: "Qemu-devel" > On Apr 7, 2021, at 1:28 AM, Howard Spoelstra = wrote: >=20 > On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 7:26 AM Howard Spoelstra = wrote: >>=20 >> On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 3:53 AM Programmingkid = wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Apr 6, 2021, at 7:18 PM, BALATON Zoltan = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, Programmingkid wrote: >>>>>> On Apr 6, 2021, at 12:53 PM, BALATON Zoltan = wrote: >>>>>> On Tue, 6 Apr 2021, Programmingkid wrote: >>>>>>>> On Apr 6, 2021, at 10:01 AM, Howard Spoelstra = wrote: >>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 3:44 PM Programmingkid = wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> Hi Gerd, >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I was wondering if you had access to a Mac OS 10 or Mac OS 11 = machine to test USB support. I am on Mac OS 11.1 and cannot make USB = devices work with any of my guests. So far these are the guests I have = tested with: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> - Windows 7 >>>>>>>>> - Mac OS 9.2 >>>>>>>>> - Windows 2000 >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> I have tried using USB flash drives, USB sound cards, and an = USB headset. They all show up under 'info usb', but cannot be used in = the guest. My setup does use a USB-C hub so I'm not sure if this is a = bug with QEMU or an issue with the hub. Would you have any information = on this issue? >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi John, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> As far as the Mac OS 9.2 guest is concerned on a mac OS host, = it does >>>>>>>> not support USB 2.0. I was successful only in passing through a = USB >>>>>>>> flash drive that was forced into USB 1.1 mode by connecting it = to a >>>>>>>> real USB 1.1 hub and unloading the kext it used. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>>> Howard >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Hi Howard, I was actually thinking about CC'ing you for this = email. Glad you found it. Unloading kext files does not sound pleasant. = Maybe there is some better way of doing it. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> In any case, until you make sure nothing tries to drive the = device on the host, passing it to a guest likely will fail because then = two drivers from two OSes would try to access it simultaneously which = likely creates a mess as the device and drivers don't expect this. So = you can't just pass a device through that the host has recognised and is = driving without somehow getting the host to leave it alone first before = you can pass it through. Unloading the driver is one way to do that = (although it probably breaks all other similar devices too). Maybe = there's another way to unbind a device from the host such as ejecting it = first but then I'm not sure if the low level USB needed for accessing = the device still works after that or it's completely forgotten. There's = probably a doc somewhere that describes how it works and how can you = plug a device without also getting higher level drivers to load or if = there's no official ways for that then you'll need to do some = configuration on the host t >>>> o avoid it grabbing devices that you want to pass through. On Linux = you can add an udev rule to ignore the device (maybe also adding = TAG+=3D"uaccess" to allow console users to use it without needing root = access) but not sure how USB works on macOS. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Regards, >>>>>> BALATON Zoltan >>>>>=20 >>>>> Being able to dissociate a real USB device from its Mac OS driver = would be very useful in this situation. IOKit might be one place to look = for such a feature. The Mach kernel documentation is another place that = might have what we want. >>>>=20 >>>> Those might be a good place to start. IOKit provides the drivers = and also the io registry which is probably where you can get if a driver = is bound to a device and which one is it. How to dissociate the driver = from the device though I don't know. >>>=20 >>> = https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/DeviceDrivers/Co= nceptual/IOKitFundamentals/DeviceRemoval/DeviceRemoval.html >>> According to this article a driver has a stop() and detach() method = that is called by the IOKit to remove a device. I'm thinking QEMU can be = the one that calls these methods for a certain device. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> I have one theory. What if we introduce a middleman. A pseudo-USB = device that the guest operating system could apply its configuration = data to and will also talk directly with to the real USB device. >>>>> So this: >>>>>=20 >>>>> USB device <-> Host <-> QEMU USB middleman <-> Guest >>>>=20 >>>> Isn't this middleman the QEMU usb-host device that we already have? >>>=20 >>> It could be. I need to research this issue some more. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> This could make USB 2.0 and 3.0 flash drives compatible with an = older operating system like Mac OS 9. The USB middleman could fully = accept Mac OS 9's configuration and make it think it is talking to a USB = 1.1 device. Parameters like data packet payload size would no longer be = a problem. Host driver unloading would no longer be needed (in theory). >>>>=20 >>>> However I think you're mixing up a few things here. The idea of = passing through USB devices is to let the guest handle it with its own = drivers like it was connected directly to the virtual machine and not to = emulate a USB device using host resources. If you want the latter then = use usb-storage, usb-audio or similar. All that usb-host does is just = forwarding the packets from guest to the physical device and let it talk = to it and drive it without help from the host. (I may be wrong about the = details, I haven't checked actual code but at least conceptually this = should be the case.) If you have this scenario then you can easily see = that both the host and guest driving the same USB device will not work. = You should not try to mount a USB drive in guest that's already mounted = by the host or you can't send audio from both the guest and the host at = the same time without totally confusing the device and both drivers that = don't expect this to ever happen. So for passing through the device you = have to make sure the host does not try to access it while it's used by = the guest. >>>=20 >>> This clarifies things on my part. >>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> If your guest does not have drivers for the device that you want to = pass through that's a different problem. With pass through the guest is = exclusively given the task of driving the device so it should have a = driver for it. If the device does not work with the guest if you plug it = in a physical machine then it won't work with pass through either. But = the problem here is probably not that but the disagreement between USB = speed between host and guest. If the guest does not have USB 2.0 then = you can't pass through USB 2.0 devices unless downgrading them on the = host as well in some way. So you either connect them to an USB 1 hub to = match the emulated USB hardware in the guest or you need to emulate an = USB 2 card in the guest and connect passed through devices to that. Did = USB 2 cards exist for older G3/G4 Macs? >>>=20 >>> Yes. I upgraded a friend's PowerMac G4 with such a card. >>>=20 >>>> Some PowerBooks had USB 2 ports, what hardware did those use? >>>=20 >>> I'm assuming it was the G4 PowerBooks. >>>=20 >>>> Could those be emulated in QEMU? >>>=20 >>> The PowerMac already is. >>>=20 >>>> These are separate problems though from getting the device freed = from host drivers to avoid the problems with both guest and host = accessing the device. >>>=20 >>> Thank you again for the help. >>>=20 >>> I think a simple algorithm would be >>> 1) find out if a host driver is already using a real USB device. >>> 2) If it is call that driver's stop() and detach() methods for only = that USB device (other devices should not be effected). >>> 3) Let the guest start using the USB device. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >> This is what Gerd wrote about the USB 1.1 -> USB 2.0 issue: >>=20 >> "Problem is when the device is plugged into a usb2 port you can't = query >> the usb1 descriptors. So qemu presents the wrong descriptors to the >> guest in case host and guest use different usb speeds. That may or = may >> not work ... >>=20 >> The other way around is less problematic, when plugging a usb2 device >> into a usb3-capable (xhci) port I can tell the guest "this is a usb2 >> device". But reporting "this is a usb2 device" via ohci isn't going = to >> fly for obvious reasons ..." >>=20 >> So then I forced my device it into USB 1.1 mode by attaching it to a >> real 1.1 hub. The qemu hub will not do this for you. Mac OS and Mac = OS >> X guests up to 10.2.8 do not have USB 2.0 support, but from 10.2.8 >> upwards you can use the ehci hub. This works for a simple usb storage >> device that uses the usbstorage kext in macOS. Indeed, as Zoltan >> wrote, unloading a kext for a device that has its class driver = loaded, >> one looses access to other devices that match too. Reboot time ;-) >>=20 >> There used to be a solution by creating an empty kext that loaded = with >> higher priority compared to the standard kexts. I don't know whether >> that solution could still work with Apple putting new requirements on >> kext loading. I believe unloading a kext requires disabling SIP. Sudo >> won't do anymore from Catalina upwards. >>=20 >> I gather Qemu is currenty relying on libusb to do the heavy lifting. >> For Linux that seems OK together with perhaps first unbinding a >> driver, but for macOS and Windows hosts the unbinding does not work. >>=20 >> Here is some discussion on how to create an empty kext: >> https://github.com/libusb/libusb/issues/158#issuecomment-190582178 >>=20 >> Best, >> Howard >=20 > And this: > https://github.com/libusb/libusb/issues/906 Have you tried the proposed changes yet for libusb?=20