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b10sm453731pjo.32.2020.02.03.14.36.09 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 03 Feb 2020 14:36:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: VW ELF loader To: Paolo Bonzini , David Gibson References: <20200203012842.GD52446@umbus.fritz.box> <8420784f-b4c7-9864-8534-b94dbc5f74ff@redhat.com> From: Alexey Kardashevskiy Autocrypt: addr=aik@ozlabs.ru; keydata= mQINBE+rT0sBEADFEI2UtPRsLLvnRf+tI9nA8T91+jDK3NLkqV+2DKHkTGPP5qzDZpRSH6mD EePO1JqpVuIow/wGud9xaPA5uvuVgRS1q7RU8otD+7VLDFzPRiRE4Jfr2CW89Ox6BF+q5ZPV /pS4v4G9eOrw1v09lEKHB9WtiBVhhxKK1LnUjPEH3ifkOkgW7jFfoYgTdtB3XaXVgYnNPDFo PTBYsJy+wr89XfyHr2Ev7BB3Xaf7qICXdBF8MEVY8t/UFsesg4wFWOuzCfqxFmKEaPDZlTuR tfLAeVpslNfWCi5ybPlowLx6KJqOsI9R2a9o4qRXWGP7IwiMRAC3iiPyk9cknt8ee6EUIxI6 t847eFaVKI/6WcxhszI0R6Cj+N4y+1rHfkGWYWupCiHwj9DjILW9iEAncVgQmkNPpUsZECLT WQzMuVSxjuXW4nJ6f4OFHqL2dU//qR+BM/eJ0TT3OnfLcPqfucGxubhT7n/CXUxEy+mvWwnm s9p4uqVpTfEuzQ0/bE6t7dZdPBua7eYox1AQnk8JQDwC3Rn9kZq2O7u5KuJP5MfludMmQevm 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MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8420784f-b4c7-9864-8534-b94dbc5f74ff@redhat.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Genre and OS details not recognized. X-Received-From: 2607:f8b0:4864:20::429 X-BeenThere: qemu-devel@nongnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Cc: Christian Borntraeger , Thomas Huth , "qemu-devel@nongnu.org" , Cornelia Huck , Stefano Garzarella Errors-To: qemu-devel-bounces+qemu-devel=archiver.kernel.org@nongnu.org Sender: "Qemu-devel" On 04/02/2020 02:08, Paolo Bonzini wrote: > On 03/02/20 11:58, Alexey Kardashevskiy wrote: >>>> So really, the question isn't whether we implement things in firmware >>>> or in qemu. It's whether we implement the firmware functionality as >>>> guest cpu code, which needs to be coded to work with a limited >>>> environment, built with a special toolchain, then emulated with TCG. >>>> Or, do we just implement it in normal C code, with a full C library, >>>> and existing device and backend abstractions inside qemu. >>> >>> ... which is adding almost 2000 lines of new code to the host despite >>> the following limitations: >>> >>>> 4. no networking in OF CI at all; >>>> 5. no vga; >>>> 6. no disk partitions in CI, i.e. no commas to select a partition - >>>> this relies on a bootloader accessing the disk as a whole; >> >> This is not going to be a lot really, especially supporting partitions - >> the code is practically there already as I needed it to find GRUB, and >> GRUB does the rest asking very little from the firmware to work. > > What partition formats would have to be supported? MBR, GPT, is there anything else? "Support" is limited to converting a number after command to [start, size] couple. I am not going for file systems. > But honestly I'm > more worried about the networking part. Fair enough. >> btw what is the common way of netbooting in x86? NIC ROM or GRUB (but >> this would be a disk anyway)? Can we consider having a precompiled GRUB >> image somewhere in pc-bios/ to use for netboot? Or Uboot would do (it is >> already in pc-bios/, no?), I suppose? > > GRUB netboot support is almost never used. Huh. We use yaboot here in Ozlabs for netbooting quite a lot. > There are three cases: > > - QEMU BIOS: the NIC ROM contain iPXE, which is both the driver code and > the boot loader (which chains into GRUB). > > - Bare metal BIOS: same, but the boot loader is minimal so most of the > time iPXE is loaded via TFTP and reuses the NIC ROM's driver code. > > - UEFI: the NIC ROM contains driver code only and the firmware does the > rest. Well, we never really had this luxury of NIC ROM, there were a couple of NICs with fcode which never really worked in SLOF. Oh well, this is probably the time to look into netbooting then. >>> In other words you're not dropping SLOF, you're really dropping >>> OpenFirmware completely. >> >> What is the exact benefit of having OpenFirmware's "interpret"? > > None, besides being able to play space invaders written in Forth. I'm > not against dropping most OpenFirmware capabilities, I'm against adding > a limited (or broken depending on what you're trying to do) version that > runs in the host. > > Yes, SLOF is big and slow. petitboot is not petit at all either, and > has the disadvantage that you have to find a way to run GRUB afterwards. > But would a similarly minimal OF implementation (no network, almost no > interpret so no Forth, device tree built entirely in the host, etc.) The device tree is almost completely built in QEMU these days anyway, twice during normal boot. > be just as big and slow? I doubt. We will be getting rid of unnecessary drivers, bus scanning code (SCSI, PCI), device tree synchronization. -- Alexey