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LUoDW4_D4K3R8BNje5_.RAPua8x7RB_zk7dZgXpIMXm7zxeEsr_U3jXZuJCCqRzhVjSu5gJRcpRL 0KnQheLN4IabTAeBgsgqkf64KLWTPbmyIO6eT2M7D9IfHvwDP.I2Np40nWO8GwBYa X-Sonic-MF: Received: from sonic.gate.mail.ne1.yahoo.com by sonic306.consmr.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with HTTP; Thu, 8 Sep 2022 16:00:48 +0000 Received: by hermes--production-bf1-64b498bbdd-k67v5 (Yahoo Inc. Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 94c6992c183f1261feae5fcdbe418045; Thu, 08 Sep 2022 16:00:43 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <998087b2-c17d-e536-66ff-a473fe6b799a@schaufler-ca.com> Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2022 09:00:42 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/91.13.0 Subject: Re: LSM stacking in next for 6.1? Content-Language: en-US To: Tetsuo Handa , paul Moore , LSM List Cc: James Morris , linux-audit@redhat.com, John Johansen , Mimi Zohar , keescook@chromium.org, SElinux list , casey@schaufler-ca.com References: <791e13b5-bebd-12fc-53de-e9a86df23836.ref@schaufler-ca.com> <791e13b5-bebd-12fc-53de-e9a86df23836@schaufler-ca.com> <8ac2731c-a1db-df7b-3690-dac2b371e431@I-love.SAKURA.ne.jp> From: Casey Schaufler In-Reply-To: <8ac2731c-a1db-df7b-3690-dac2b371e431@I-love.SAKURA.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Mailer: WebService/1.1.20612 mail.backend.jedi.jws.acl:role.jedi.acl.token.atz.jws.hermes.yahoo Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: selinux@vger.kernel.org On 9/8/2022 8:18 AM, Tetsuo Handa wrote: > On 2022/08/03 9:01, Casey Schaufler wrote: >> I would like very much to get v38 or v39 of the LSM stacking for Apparmor >> patch set in the LSM next branch for 6.1. The audit changes have polished >> up nicely and I believe that all comments on the integrity code have been >> addressed. The interface_lsm mechanism has been beaten to a frothy peak. >> There are serious binder changes, but I think they address issues beyond >> the needs of stacking. Changes outside these areas are pretty well limited >> to LSM interface improvements. >> > After ((SELinux xor Smack) and AppArmor) is made possible in next for 6.1, what > comes next? Are you planning to make (SELinux and Smack and AppArmor) possible? The stacking isn't going into 6.1. Paul's decision that LSM system calls are a requirement will require additional work. With LSS-EU next week and a long overdue trip on my part in early October I don't see 6.2 as at all likely, either. The commitment I made to Paul some years ago now was that the stacking would eventually include making all combinations possible. That is still my plan. The issues beyond ((SELinux xor Smack) and AppArmor) are primarily network related. Secmarks, netlabel and SO_PEERSEC in particular. I have posted preliminary patches in the past, but they need to be revisited in light of development that has occurred since then. On the other hand, I'm getting the "when are you going to retire?" question way way way too regularly these days. While I intend to complete the work as promised, I don't expect to be working on much with significant importance come 2030. > My concern is, when loadable LSM modules becomes legal, for I'm refraining from > again proposing CaitSith until LSM stacking completes. I would not wait. There is no reason the efforts cannot progress in parallel. > Linus Torvalds said > > You security people are insane. I'm tired of this "only my version is correct" crap. My favorite Linus quote of all time. I try to include it in every presentation I give. > at https://lkml.kernel.org/r/alpine.LFD.0.999.0710010803280.3579@woody.linux-foundation.org . > > Many modules > > SimpleFlow （ 2016/04/21 https://lwn.net/Articles/684825/ ） > HardChroot （ 2016/07/29 https://lwn.net/Articles/695984/ ） > Checmate （ 2016/08/04 https://lwn.net/Articles/696344/ ） > LandLock （ 2016/08/25 https://lwn.net/Articles/698226/ ） > PTAGS （ 2016/09/29 https://lwn.net/Articles/702639/ ） > CaitSith （ 2016/10/21 https://lwn.net/Articles/704262/ ） > SafeName （ 2016/05/03 https://lwn.net/Articles/686021/ ） > WhiteEgret （ 2017/05/30 https://lwn.net/Articles/724192/ ） > shebang （ 2017/06/09 https://lwn.net/Articles/725285/ ） > S.A.R.A. （ 2017/06/13 https://lwn.net/Articles/725230/ ） > > are proposed 5 or 6 years ago, but mostly became silent... Yes. Unless a major distributor (Redhat, Canonical, ...) decides to include it the upstream potential of an LSM is very limited. > I still need byte-code analysis for finding the hook and code for making the hook > writable in AKARI/CaitSith due to lack of EXPORT_SYMBOL_GPL(security_add_hooks). > I wonder when I can stop questions like https://osdn.net/projects/tomoyo/lists/archive/users-en/2022-September/000740.html > caused by https://patchwork.kernel.org/project/linux-security-module/patch/alpine.LRH.2.20.1702131631490.8914@namei.org/ . The BPF people made noises about revamping the way LSM hooks get called for performance reasons, but I have not seen a proposal from them. I have assumed that they will get around to it eventually. > Last 10 years, my involvement with Linux kernel is "fixing bugs" rather than > "developing security mechanisms". Changes what I found in the past 10 years are: > > As far as I'm aware, more than 99% of systems still disable SELinux. People use RHEL, > but the reason to choose RHEL is not because RHEL supports SELinux. The only thing > changed is that the way to disable SELinux changed from SELINUX=disabled in > /etc/selinux/config to selinux=0 on kernel command line options.