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mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=citrix.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=citrix.com; dkim=pass header.d=citrix.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=citrix.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-citrix-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=+r98C+YPJljSygfHhvW6GZ3EnK2dU1KjitvcHRJvzDs=; b=nEpV/zHRR78N9uTXm49cDDsjTSejIlB3bevqAkxU6txsW11Z/AZtzxn/HKmunYjLwWaMKPYi/mjHJr9eMy2ZSQdas7JoH56sIknxx3cHfIexL7PX9KVjx+V3yWvUropKmEf0SITmqngNdPSivsIE4gDUtXlqLqVQnODVInyFOvc= To: Roman Shaposhnik CC: Jan Beulich , Xen-devel , , =?UTF-8?Q?Roger_Pau_Monn=c3=a9?= References: <23baec07-a3ae-949a-a1fb-09100efd53e5@citrix.com> From: Andrew Cooper Subject: Re: multiboot2 and module2 boot issues via GRUB2 Message-ID: <8abef703-2966-cfe1-91a0-cf33990ee332@citrix.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 19:41:57 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 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charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/04/2021 19:03, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 10:51 AM Andrew Cooper > > wrote: > > On 06/04/2021 09:19, Jan Beulich wrote: > > On 01.04.2021 21:43, Andrew Cooper wrote: > >> On 01/04/2021 09:44, Roger Pau Monn=C3=A9 wrote: > >>> On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 09:31:07AM +0200, Jan Beulich wrote: > >>>> On 01.04.2021 03:06, Roman Shaposhnik wrote: > >>>>> And the obvious next question: is my EVE usecase esoteric > enough that > >>>>> I should just go ahead and do a custom GRUB patch or is > there a more > >>>>> general interest in this? > >>>> Not sure if it ought to be a grub patch - the issue could as w= ell > >>>> be dealt with in Xen, by concatenating modules to form a > monolithic > >>>> initrd. > >>> I would rather have it done in the loader than Xen, mostly beca= use > >>> it's a Linux boot specific format, and hence I don't think Xen > should > >>> have any knowledge about it. > >>> > >>> If it turns out to be impossible to implement on the loader > side we > >>> should consider doing it in Xen, but that's not my first option= =2E > >> Concatenating random things which may or may not be initrds is > >> absolutely not something Xen should do.=C2=A0 We don't have enou= gh > context to > >> do it safely/sensibly. > > Well, I wasn't suggesting anywhere to concatenate random things. > > Instead I was envisioning a command line option giving us the > > context we need (e.g. "initrd=3D3+5"). > > That's a massive layering violation, and incredibly fragile to the > order > of lines in the boot stanza. > > > Don't have enough karma to argue Xen architectural side of things, but.= =2E. > =C2=A0 > > Either fix it by using a single monolithic initrd, which has worked= > perfectly well for the past 2 decades > > > ...just to point out the obvious here:=C2=A0 even Debian who can HARDLY= be > blamed for tracking the bleeding edge has been recommending this > for quite some time: > =C2=A0 > =C2=A0=C2=A0https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/NetbootFirmware#The= _Solution:_Add_Firmware_to_Initramfs > > Obviously there's no way to do that with Xen today out of the box. ? Those instructions do work out of the box with Xen. It seems that pxelinux gained support for multiple initrd fragments in 3.05, but the sum total of documentation I can find is in the changelog.=C2=A0 iPXE might have this ability, but it's documentation is self-contradictory on the matter. > > Now, you can turn around and say "well, how hard could it be to > concatenate?". That's fair. But it is also fair to point out that > everytime > we do that we portray Xen as "not quite as user friendly as X" (and > this is, of course, pure perception -- but if we want users to stick > perception matters a lot). It's distinctly not trivial to do correctly at the Xen level, and fairly invasive in at least two areas of logic.=C2=A0 Specific firmware layouts = and multiple fragments might even be impossible to concatenate, and its better for the bootloaders to bail if they can't make the memory layout work, than to leave Xen holding the the pieces and unable to boot.=C2=A0 Either way, it would appear that common bootloaders already have logic for this, which gets you a lot further than starting from scratch in Xen.= Furthermore, I don't think it fair to claim that this is a usability bug in Xen, when what the Linux people have done is upstream Linux-specific hacks to bootloaders.=C2=A0 Fixing the bootloaders to not have useful features be Linux specific benefits everyone using Multiboot, not just the Xen ecosystem.=C2=A0 If you're looking for general betterness to all = OSS, then fixing the bootloaders is clearly the better approach. ~Andrew --------------3C76A0BF5FFC632325C9E331 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
On 06/04/2021 19:03, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 10:51 AM Andrew Cooper <andrew.cooper3@citrix.com> wrote:
On 06/04/2021 09:19, Jan Beulich wrote:
> On 01.04.2021 21:43, Andrew Cooper wrote:
>> On 01/04/2021 09:44, Roger Pau Monné wrote:
>>> On Thu, Apr 01, 2021 at 09:31:07AM +0200, Jan Beulich wrote:
>>>> On 01.04.2021 03:06, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
>>>>> And the obvious next question: is my EVE usecase esoteric enough that
>>>>> I should just go ahead and do a custom GRUB patch or is there a more
>>>>> general interest in this?
>>>> Not sure if it ought to be a grub patch - the issue could as well
>>>> be dealt with in Xen, by concatenating modules to form a monolithic
>>>> initrd.
>>> I would rather have it done in the loader than Xen, mostly because
>>> it's a Linux boot specific format, and hence I don't think Xen should
>>> have any knowledge about it.
>>>
>>> If it turns out to be impossible to implement on the loader side we
>>> should consider doing it in Xen, but that's not my first option.
>> Concatenating random things which may or may not be initrds is
>> absolutely not something Xen should do.  We don't have enough context to
>> do it safely/sensibly.
> Well, I wasn't suggesting anywhere to concatenate random things.
> Instead I was envisioning a command line option giving us the
> context we need (e.g. "initrd=3+5").

That's a massive layering violation, and incredibly fragile to the order
of lines in the boot stanza.

Don't have enough karma to argue Xen architectural side of things, but...
 
Either fix it by using a single monolithic initrd, which has worked
perfectly well for the past 2 decades

...just to point out the obvious here:  even Debian who can HARDLY be
blamed for tracking the bleeding edge has been recommending this
for quite some time:
Obviously there's no way to do that with Xen today out of the box.

?

Those instructions do work out of the box with Xen.

It seems that pxelinux gained support for multiple initrd fragments in 3.05, but the sum total of documentation I can find is in the changelog.  iPXE might have this ability, but it's documentation is self-contradictory on the matter.


Now, you can turn around and say "well, how hard could it be to
concatenate?". That's fair. But it is also fair to point out that everytime
we do that we portray Xen as "not quite as user friendly as X" (and
this is, of course, pure perception -- but if we want users to stick
perception matters a lot).

It's distinctly not trivial to do correctly at the Xen level, and fairly invasive in at least two areas of logic.  Specific firmware layouts and multiple fragments might even be impossible to concatenate, and its better for the bootloaders to bail if they can't make the memory layout work, than to leave Xen holding the the pieces and unable to boot.  Either way, it would appear that common bootloaders already have logic for this, which gets you a lot further than starting from scratch in Xen.


Furthermore, I don't think it fair to claim that this is a usability bug in Xen, when what the Linux people have done is upstream Linux-specific hacks to bootloaders.  Fixing the bootloaders to not have useful features be Linux specific benefits everyone using Multiboot, not just the Xen ecosystem.  If you're looking for general betterness to all OSS, then fixing the bootloaders is clearly the better approach.

~Andrew
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