From: Stefano Stabellini <sstabellini@kernel.org> To: Julien Grall <julien.grall@arm.com> Cc: xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org, nd@arm.com, Stefano Stabellini <sstabellini@kernel.org>, Stefano Stabellini <stefanos@xilinx.com> Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 10/10] xen/arm: add reserved-memory regions to the dom0 memory node Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview] Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1905201407410.16404@sstabellini-ThinkPad-T480s> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20f548ea-eb18-8700-9d1e-53462abbff0c@arm.com> On Sat, 11 May 2019, Julien Grall wrote: > > > > But I am still not happy with the approach taken for the reserved-memory > > > > regions in this series. As I pointed out before, they are just normal > > > > memory > > > > that was reserved for other purpose (CMA, framebuffer...). > > > > > > > > Treating them as "device" from Xen POV is a clear abuse of the meaning > > > > and I > > > > don't believe it is a viable solution long term. > > > > > > If we don't consider "reusable" memory regions as part of the > > > discussion, the distinction becomes more philosophical than practical: > > > > > > - Xen is not supposed to use them for anything > > > - only given them to the VM configured for it > > > > > > I don't see much of a difference with MMIO regions, except for the > > > expected pagetable attributes: i.e. cacheable, not-cacheable. But even > > > in that case, there could be reasonable use cases for non-cacheable > > > mappings of reserved-memory regions, even if reserved-memory regions are > > > "normal" memory. > > > > > > Could you please help me understand why you see them so differently, as > > > far as to say that "treating them as "device" from Xen POV is a clear > > > abuse of the meaning"? > > > > Obviously if you take half of the picture, then it makes things easier. > > However, we are not here to discuss half of the picture but the full one > > (even if at the end you only implement half of it). > > > > > > Indeed, some of the regions may have a property "reusable" allowing the > > > > the OS > > > > to use them until they are claimed by the device driver owning the > > > > region. I > > > > don't know how Linux (or any other OS) is using it today, but I don't > > > > see what > > > > would prevent it to use them as hypercall buffer. This would obviously > > > > not > > > > work because they are not actual RAM from Xen POV. > > > > > > I haven't attempted at handling "reusable" reserved-memory regions > > > because I don't have a test environment and/or a use-case for them. In > > > other words, I don't have any "reusable" reserved-memory regions in any > > > of the boards (Xilinx and not Xilinx) I have access to. I could add a > > > warning if we find a "reusable" reserved-memory region at boot. > > > > Don't get me wrong, I don't ask for the implementation now, so a warning > > would be fine here. However, you need at least to show me some ground that > > re-usable memory can be implemented with your solution or they are not a > > concern for Xen at all. > > > > > > > > Nonetheless, if you have a concrete suggestion which doesn't require a > > > complete rework of this series, I can try to put extra effort to handle > > > this case even if it is not a benefit to my employer. I am also open to > > > the possibility of dropping patches 6-10 from the series. > > I don't think the series as it is would allow us to support re-usable > > memory. However as I haven't spent enough time to understand how this could > > be possibly dealt. So I am happy to be proved wrong. > > I thought a bit more about this series during the night. I do agree that we > need to improve the support of the reserved-memory today as we may give memory > to the allocator that are could be exposed to a guest via a different method > (iomem). So carving out the reserved-memory region from the memory allocator > is the first step to go. > > Now we have to differentiate the hardware domain from the other guests. I > don't have any objection regarding the way to map reserved-memory region to > the hardware domain because this is completely internal to Xen. However, I > have some objections with the current interface for DomU: > 1) It is still unclear how "reusable" property would fit in that story > 2) It is definitely not possible for a user to use 'iomem' for > reserved-memory region today because the partial Device-Tree doesn't allow you > to create /reserved-memory node nor /memory > 3) AFAIK, there are no way for to prevent the hardware domain to use the > reserved-region (status = "disabled" would not work). > So, IHMO, the guest support for reserved-memory is not in shape. So I think it > would be best if we don't permit the reserved-memory region in the iomem > rangeset. This would avoid us to tie us in an interface until we figure out > the correct plan for guest. Wouldn't be proper documentation be enough? (See below for where the documentation should live.) This is not about privilege over the system: whoever will make the decision to ask the hypervisor to map the page will have all the necessary rights to do it. If the user wants to map a given region, either because she knows what she is doing, because she is experimenting, or for whatever reason, I think she should be allowed. In fact, she can always do it by reverting the patch. So why make it inconvenient for her? > With that in place, I don't have a strong objection with patches 6-10. > > In any case I think you should clearly spell out in the commit message what > kind of reserved-memory region is supported. Yes, this makes sense. I am thinking of adding a note to SUPPORT.md. Any other places where I should write it down aside from commit messages? > For instance, by just going through the binding, I have the feeling > that those properties are not actually supported: > 1) "no-map" - It is used to tell the OS to not create a virtual memory of > the region as part of its standard mapping of system memory, nor permit > speculative access to it under any circumstances other than under the control > of the device driver using the region. On Arm64, Xen will map reserved-memory > as part of xenheap (i.e the direct mapping), but carving out from xenheap > would not be sufficient as we use 1GB block for the mapping. So they may still > be covered. I would assume this is used for memory that needs to be mapped > non-cacheable, so it is potentially critical as Xen would map them cacheable > in the stage-1 hypervisor page-tables. > 2) "alloc-ranges": it is used to specify regions of memory where it is > acceptable to allocate memory from. This may not play well with the Dom0 > memory allocator. > 3) "reusable": I mention here only for completeness. My understanding is > it could potentially be used for hypercall buffer. This needs to be > investigated. Yes, you are right about these properties not being properly supported. Do you think that I should list them in SUPPORT.md under a new iomem section? Or do you prefer a longer document under docs/? Or both? _______________________________________________ Xen-devel mailing list Xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org https://lists.xenproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen-devel
WARNING: multiple messages have this Message-ID (diff)
From: Stefano Stabellini <sstabellini@kernel.org> To: Julien Grall <julien.grall@arm.com> Cc: xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org, nd@arm.com, Stefano Stabellini <sstabellini@kernel.org>, Stefano Stabellini <stefanos@xilinx.com> Subject: Re: [Xen-devel] [PATCH v2 10/10] xen/arm: add reserved-memory regions to the dom0 memory node Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 14:26:51 -0700 (PDT) [thread overview] Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.1905201407410.16404@sstabellini-ThinkPad-T480s> (raw) Message-ID: <20190520212651.H_2uyX8zXjzofxjrhOYpYK2CB--YtYyDgcpEmTV6_lw@z> (raw) In-Reply-To: <20f548ea-eb18-8700-9d1e-53462abbff0c@arm.com> On Sat, 11 May 2019, Julien Grall wrote: > > > > But I am still not happy with the approach taken for the reserved-memory > > > > regions in this series. As I pointed out before, they are just normal > > > > memory > > > > that was reserved for other purpose (CMA, framebuffer...). > > > > > > > > Treating them as "device" from Xen POV is a clear abuse of the meaning > > > > and I > > > > don't believe it is a viable solution long term. > > > > > > If we don't consider "reusable" memory regions as part of the > > > discussion, the distinction becomes more philosophical than practical: > > > > > > - Xen is not supposed to use them for anything > > > - only given them to the VM configured for it > > > > > > I don't see much of a difference with MMIO regions, except for the > > > expected pagetable attributes: i.e. cacheable, not-cacheable. But even > > > in that case, there could be reasonable use cases for non-cacheable > > > mappings of reserved-memory regions, even if reserved-memory regions are > > > "normal" memory. > > > > > > Could you please help me understand why you see them so differently, as > > > far as to say that "treating them as "device" from Xen POV is a clear > > > abuse of the meaning"? > > > > Obviously if you take half of the picture, then it makes things easier. > > However, we are not here to discuss half of the picture but the full one > > (even if at the end you only implement half of it). > > > > > > Indeed, some of the regions may have a property "reusable" allowing the > > > > the OS > > > > to use them until they are claimed by the device driver owning the > > > > region. I > > > > don't know how Linux (or any other OS) is using it today, but I don't > > > > see what > > > > would prevent it to use them as hypercall buffer. This would obviously > > > > not > > > > work because they are not actual RAM from Xen POV. > > > > > > I haven't attempted at handling "reusable" reserved-memory regions > > > because I don't have a test environment and/or a use-case for them. In > > > other words, I don't have any "reusable" reserved-memory regions in any > > > of the boards (Xilinx and not Xilinx) I have access to. I could add a > > > warning if we find a "reusable" reserved-memory region at boot. > > > > Don't get me wrong, I don't ask for the implementation now, so a warning > > would be fine here. However, you need at least to show me some ground that > > re-usable memory can be implemented with your solution or they are not a > > concern for Xen at all. > > > > > > > > Nonetheless, if you have a concrete suggestion which doesn't require a > > > complete rework of this series, I can try to put extra effort to handle > > > this case even if it is not a benefit to my employer. I am also open to > > > the possibility of dropping patches 6-10 from the series. > > I don't think the series as it is would allow us to support re-usable > > memory. However as I haven't spent enough time to understand how this could > > be possibly dealt. So I am happy to be proved wrong. > > I thought a bit more about this series during the night. I do agree that we > need to improve the support of the reserved-memory today as we may give memory > to the allocator that are could be exposed to a guest via a different method > (iomem). So carving out the reserved-memory region from the memory allocator > is the first step to go. > > Now we have to differentiate the hardware domain from the other guests. I > don't have any objection regarding the way to map reserved-memory region to > the hardware domain because this is completely internal to Xen. However, I > have some objections with the current interface for DomU: > 1) It is still unclear how "reusable" property would fit in that story > 2) It is definitely not possible for a user to use 'iomem' for > reserved-memory region today because the partial Device-Tree doesn't allow you > to create /reserved-memory node nor /memory > 3) AFAIK, there are no way for to prevent the hardware domain to use the > reserved-region (status = "disabled" would not work). > So, IHMO, the guest support for reserved-memory is not in shape. So I think it > would be best if we don't permit the reserved-memory region in the iomem > rangeset. This would avoid us to tie us in an interface until we figure out > the correct plan for guest. Wouldn't be proper documentation be enough? (See below for where the documentation should live.) This is not about privilege over the system: whoever will make the decision to ask the hypervisor to map the page will have all the necessary rights to do it. If the user wants to map a given region, either because she knows what she is doing, because she is experimenting, or for whatever reason, I think she should be allowed. In fact, she can always do it by reverting the patch. So why make it inconvenient for her? > With that in place, I don't have a strong objection with patches 6-10. > > In any case I think you should clearly spell out in the commit message what > kind of reserved-memory region is supported. Yes, this makes sense. I am thinking of adding a note to SUPPORT.md. Any other places where I should write it down aside from commit messages? > For instance, by just going through the binding, I have the feeling > that those properties are not actually supported: > 1) "no-map" - It is used to tell the OS to not create a virtual memory of > the region as part of its standard mapping of system memory, nor permit > speculative access to it under any circumstances other than under the control > of the device driver using the region. On Arm64, Xen will map reserved-memory > as part of xenheap (i.e the direct mapping), but carving out from xenheap > would not be sufficient as we use 1GB block for the mapping. So they may still > be covered. I would assume this is used for memory that needs to be mapped > non-cacheable, so it is potentially critical as Xen would map them cacheable > in the stage-1 hypervisor page-tables. > 2) "alloc-ranges": it is used to specify regions of memory where it is > acceptable to allocate memory from. This may not play well with the Dom0 > memory allocator. > 3) "reusable": I mention here only for completeness. My understanding is > it could potentially be used for hypercall buffer. This needs to be > investigated. Yes, you are right about these properties not being properly supported. Do you think that I should list them in SUPPORT.md under a new iomem section? Or do you prefer a longer document under docs/? Or both? _______________________________________________ Xen-devel mailing list Xen-devel@lists.xenproject.org https://lists.xenproject.org/mailman/listinfo/xen-devel
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2019-05-20 21:26 UTC|newest] Thread overview: 86+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top 2019-04-30 21:02 [PATCH v2 0/10] iomem memory policy Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 01/10] xen: add a p2mt parameter to map_mmio_regions Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-02 14:59 ` Jan Beulich 2019-05-02 14:59 ` [Xen-devel] " Jan Beulich 2019-05-02 18:49 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-02 18:49 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-15 13:39 ` Oleksandr 2019-05-15 13:39 ` [Xen-devel] " Oleksandr 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 02/10] xen: rename un/map_mmio_regions to un/map_regions Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-01 9:22 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-01 9:22 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-06-17 21:24 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-06-18 11:05 ` Julien Grall 2019-06-18 20:19 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-02 15:03 ` Jan Beulich 2019-05-02 15:03 ` [Xen-devel] " Jan Beulich 2019-05-02 18:55 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-02 18:55 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 03/10] xen: extend XEN_DOMCTL_memory_mapping to handle memory policy Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-02 15:12 ` Jan Beulich 2019-05-02 15:12 ` [Xen-devel] " Jan Beulich 2019-06-17 21:28 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-06-18 8:59 ` Jan Beulich 2019-06-18 20:32 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-06-18 23:15 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-06-19 6:53 ` Jan Beulich 2019-05-07 16:41 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-07 16:41 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-06-17 22:43 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-06-18 11:13 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-15 14:40 ` Oleksandr 2019-05-15 14:40 ` [Xen-devel] " Oleksandr 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 04/10] libxc: introduce xc_domain_mem_map_policy Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 05/10] libxl/xl: add memory policy option to iomem Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-01 9:42 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-01 9:42 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-06-17 22:32 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-06-18 11:09 ` Julien Grall 2019-06-18 11:15 ` Julien Grall 2019-06-18 22:07 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-06-18 22:20 ` Julien Grall 2019-06-18 22:46 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 06/10] xen/arm: extend device_tree_for_each_node Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-07 17:12 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-07 17:12 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 07/10] xen/arm: make process_memory_node a device_tree_node_func Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-01 9:47 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-01 9:47 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 08/10] xen/arm: keep track of reserved-memory regions Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-01 10:03 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-01 10:03 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-06-21 23:47 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-07 17:21 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-07 17:21 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 09/10] xen/arm: map reserved-memory regions as normal memory in dom0 Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-07 19:52 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-07 19:52 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [PATCH v2 10/10] xen/arm: add reserved-memory regions to the dom0 memory node Stefano Stabellini 2019-04-30 21:02 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-07 20:15 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-07 20:15 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-05-10 20:51 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-10 20:51 ` [Xen-devel] " Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-10 21:43 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-10 21:43 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-05-11 12:40 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-11 12:40 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-05-20 21:26 ` Stefano Stabellini [this message] 2019-05-20 21:26 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-20 22:38 ` Julien Grall 2019-05-20 22:38 ` [Xen-devel] " Julien Grall 2019-06-05 16:30 ` Julien Grall 2019-06-21 23:47 ` Stefano Stabellini 2019-05-16 16:52 ` [PATCH v2 0/10] iomem memory policy Oleksandr 2019-05-16 16:52 ` [Xen-devel] " Oleksandr 2019-06-21 23:48 ` Stefano Stabellini
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