Re: [PATCH bpf-next 0/3] Introduce pinnable bpf_link kernel abstraction - Toke Høiland-Jørgensen

From: "Toke Høiland-Jørgensen" <toke@redhat.com>
To: Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org>,
	Alexei Starovoitov <alexei.starovoitov@gmail.com>
Cc: Alexei Starovoitov <ast@fb.com>,
	Daniel Borkmann <daniel@iogearbox.net>,
	Andrii Nakryiko <andrii.nakryiko@gmail.com>,
	Andrii Nakryiko <andriin@fb.com>, bpf <bpf@vger.kernel.org>,
	Networking <netdev@vger.kernel.org>,
	Kernel Team <kernel-team@fb.com>
Subject: Re: [PATCH bpf-next 0/3] Introduce pinnable bpf_link kernel abstraction
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2020 12:05:23 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87tv332hak.fsf@toke.dk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200305001620.204c292e@cakuba.hsd1.ca.comcast.net>

Jakub Kicinski <kuba@kernel.org> writes:

> On Wed, 4 Mar 2020 17:07:08 -0800, Alexei Starovoitov wrote:
>> > Maybe also the thief should not have CAP_ADMIN in the first place?
>> > And ask a daemon to perform its actions..  
>> 
>> a daemon idea keeps coming back in circles.
>> With FD-based kprobe/uprobe/tracepoint/fexit/fentry that problem is gone,
>> but xdp, tc, cgroup still don't have the owner concept.
>> Some people argued that these three need three separate daemons.
>> Especially since cgroups are mainly managed by systemd plus container
>> manager it's quite different from networking (xdp, tc) where something
>> like 'networkd' might makes sense.
>> But if you take this line of thought all the ways systemd should be that
>> single daemon to coordinate attaching to xdp, tc, cgroup because
>> in many cases cgroup and tc progs have to coordinate the work.
>
> The feature creep could happen, but Toke's proposal has a fairly simple
> feature set, which should be easy to cover by a stand alone daemon.
>
> Toke, I saw that in the library discussion there was no mention of 
> a daemon, what makes a daemon solution unsuitable?

Quoting from the last discussion[0]:

> - Introducing a new, separate code base that we'll have to write, support
>   and manage updates to.
> 
> - Add a new dependency to using XDP (now you not only need the kernel
>   and libraries, you'll also need the daemon).
> 
> - Have to duplicate or wrap functionality currently found in the kernel;
>   at least:
>   
>     - Keeping track of which XDP programs are loaded and attached to
>       each interface (as well as the "new state" of their attachment
>       order).
> 
>     - Some kind of interface with the verifier; if an app does
>       xdpd_rpc_load(prog), how is the verifier result going to get back
>       to the caller?
> 
> - Have to deal with state synchronisation issues (how does xdpd handle
>   kernel state changing from underneath it?).
> 
> While these are issues that are (probably) all solvable, I think the
> cost of solving them is far higher than putting the support into the
> kernel. Which is why I think kernel support is the best solution :)

The context was slightly different, since this was before we had
freplace support in the kernel. But apart from the point about the
verifier, I think the arguments still stand. In fact, now that we have
that, we don't even need userspace linking, so basically a daemon's only
task would be to arbitrate access to the XDP hook? In my book,
arbitrating access to resources is what the kernel is all about...

-Toke

[0] https://lore.kernel.org/bpf/m/874l07fu61.fsf@toke.dk