From: "Christian König" <ckoenig.leichtzumerken@gmail.com>
To: "Marek Olšák" <maraeo@gmail.com>
Cc: ML Mesa-dev <mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org>,
dri-devel <dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org>
Subject: Re: [Mesa-dev] [RFC] Linux Graphics Next: Explicit fences everywhere and no BO fences - initial proposal
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 17:13:54 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <78a45197-1563-6ad7-5e54-a2ed1d1332bd@gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAAxE2A4FwZ11_opL++TPUViTOD6ZpV5b3MR+rTDUPvzqYz-oeQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Uff good question. DMA-buf certainly supports that use case, but I have
no idea if that is actually used somewhere.
Daniel do you know any case?
Christian.
Am 27.04.21 um 15:26 schrieb Marek Olšák:
> Ok. So that would only make the following use cases broken for now:
> - amd render -> external gpu
> - amd video encode -> network device
>
> What about the case when we get a buffer from an external device and
> we're supposed to make it "busy" when we are using it, and the
> external device wants to wait until we stop using it? Is it something
> that can happen, thus turning "external -> amd" into "external <-> amd"?
>
> Marek
>
> On Tue., Apr. 27, 2021, 08:50 Christian König,
> <ckoenig.leichtzumerken@gmail.com
> <mailto:ckoenig.leichtzumerken@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Only amd -> external.
>
> We can easily install something in an user queue which waits for a
> dma_fence in the kernel.
>
> But we can't easily wait for an user queue as dependency of a
> dma_fence.
>
> The good thing is we have this wait before signal case on Vulkan
> timeline semaphores which have the same problem in the kernel.
>
> The good news is I think we can relatively easily convert i915 and
> older amdgpu device to something which is compatible with user fences.
>
> So yes, getting that fixed case by case should work.
>
> Christian
>
> Am 27.04.21 um 14:46 schrieb Marek Olšák:
>> I'll defer to Christian and Alex to decide whether dropping sync
>> with non-amd devices (GPUs, cameras etc.) is acceptable.
>>
>> Rewriting those drivers to this new sync model could be done on a
>> case by case basis.
>>
>> For now, would we only lose the "amd -> external" dependency? Or
>> the "external -> amd" dependency too?
>>
>> Marek
>>
>> On Tue., Apr. 27, 2021, 08:15 Daniel Vetter, <daniel@ffwll.ch
>> <mailto:daniel@ffwll.ch>> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 2:11 PM Marek Olšák <maraeo@gmail.com
>> <mailto:maraeo@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> > Ok. I'll interpret this as "yes, it will work, let's do it".
>>
>> It works if all you care about is drm/amdgpu. I'm not sure
>> that's a
>> reasonable approach for upstream, but it definitely is an
>> approach :-)
>>
>> We've already gone somewhat through the pain of drm/amdgpu
>> redefining
>> how implicit sync works without sufficiently talking with other
>> people, maybe we should avoid a repeat of this ...
>> -Daniel
>>
>> >
>> > Marek
>> >
>> > On Tue., Apr. 27, 2021, 08:06 Christian König,
>> <ckoenig.leichtzumerken@gmail.com
>> <mailto:ckoenig.leichtzumerken@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Correct, we wouldn't have synchronization between device
>> with and without user queues any more.
>> >>
>> >> That could only be a problem for A+I Laptops.
>> >>
>> >> Memory management will just work with preemption fences
>> which pause the user queues of a process before evicting
>> something. That will be a dma_fence, but also a well known
>> approach.
>> >>
>> >> Christian.
>> >>
>> >> Am 27.04.21 um 13:49 schrieb Marek Olšák:
>> >>
>> >> If we don't use future fences for DMA fences at all, e.g.
>> we don't use them for memory management, it can work, right?
>> Memory management can suspend user queues anytime. It doesn't
>> need to use DMA fences. There might be something that I'm
>> missing here.
>> >>
>> >> What would we lose without DMA fences? Just inter-device
>> synchronization? I think that might be acceptable.
>> >>
>> >> The only case when the kernel will wait on a future fence
>> is before a page flip. Everything today already depends on
>> userspace not hanging the gpu, which makes everything a
>> future fence.
>> >>
>> >> Marek
>> >>
>> >> On Tue., Apr. 27, 2021, 04:02 Daniel Vetter,
>> <daniel@ffwll.ch <mailto:daniel@ffwll.ch>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 04:59:28PM -0400, Marek Olšák wrote:
>> >>> > Thanks everybody. The initial proposal is dead. Here
>> are some thoughts on
>> >>> > how to do it differently.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I think we can have direct command submission from
>> userspace via
>> >>> > memory-mapped queues ("user queues") without changing
>> window systems.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > The memory management doesn't have to use GPU page
>> faults like HMM.
>> >>> > Instead, it can wait for user queues of a specific
>> process to go idle and
>> >>> > then unmap the queues, so that userspace can't submit
>> anything. Buffer
>> >>> > evictions, pinning, etc. can be executed when all
>> queues are unmapped
>> >>> > (suspended). Thus, no BO fences and page faults are needed.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Inter-process synchronization can use timeline
>> semaphores. Userspace will
>> >>> > query the wait and signal value for a shared buffer
>> from the kernel. The
>> >>> > kernel will keep a history of those queries to know
>> which process is
>> >>> > responsible for signalling which buffer. There is only
>> the wait-timeout
>> >>> > issue and how to identify the culprit. One of the
>> solutions is to have the
>> >>> > GPU send all GPU signal commands and all timed out wait
>> commands via an
>> >>> > interrupt to the kernel driver to monitor and validate
>> userspace behavior.
>> >>> > With that, it can be identified whether the culprit is
>> the waiting process
>> >>> > or the signalling process and which one. Invalid
>> signal/wait parameters can
>> >>> > also be detected. The kernel can force-signal only the
>> semaphores that time
>> >>> > out, and punish the processes which caused the timeout
>> or used invalid
>> >>> > signal/wait parameters.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > The question is whether this synchronization solution
>> is robust enough for
>> >>> > dma_fence and whatever the kernel and window systems need.
>> >>>
>> >>> The proper model here is the preempt-ctx dma_fence that
>> amdkfd uses
>> >>> (without page faults). That means dma_fence for
>> synchronization is doa, at
>> >>> least as-is, and we're back to figuring out the winsys
>> problem.
>> >>>
>> >>> "We'll solve it with timeouts" is very tempting, but
>> doesn't work. It's
>> >>> akin to saying that we're solving deadlock issues in a
>> locking design by
>> >>> doing a global s/mutex_lock/mutex_lock_timeout/ in the
>> kernel. Sure it
>> >>> avoids having to reach the reset button, but that's about it.
>> >>>
>> >>> And the fundamental problem is that once you throw in
>> userspace command
>> >>> submission (and syncing, at least within the userspace
>> driver, otherwise
>> >>> there's kinda no point if you still need the kernel for
>> cross-engine sync)
>> >>> means you get deadlocks if you still use dma_fence for
>> sync under
>> >>> perfectly legit use-case. We've discussed that one ad
>> nauseam last summer:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> https://dri.freedesktop.org/docs/drm/driver-api/dma-buf.html?highlight=dma_fence#indefinite-dma-fences
>> <https://dri.freedesktop.org/docs/drm/driver-api/dma-buf.html?highlight=dma_fence#indefinite-dma-fences>
>> >>>
>> >>> See silly diagramm at the bottom.
>> >>>
>> >>> Now I think all isn't lost, because imo the first step to
>> getting to this
>> >>> brave new world is rebuilding the driver on top of
>> userspace fences, and
>> >>> with the adjusted cmd submit model. You probably don't
>> want to use amdkfd,
>> >>> but port that as a context flag or similar to render
>> nodes for gl/vk. Of
>> >>> course that means you can only use this mode in headless,
>> without
>> >>> glx/wayland winsys support, but it's a start.
>> >>> -Daniel
>> >>>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Marek
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 4:34 PM Daniel Stone
>> <daniel@fooishbar.org <mailto:daniel@fooishbar.org>> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > > Hi,
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 at 20:30, Daniel Vetter
>> <daniel@ffwll.ch <mailto:daniel@ffwll.ch>> wrote:
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >> The thing is, you can't do this in drm/scheduler. At
>> least not without
>> >>> > >> splitting up the dma_fence in the kernel into
>> separate memory fences
>> >>> > >> and sync fences
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > I'm starting to think this thread needs its own
>> glossary ...
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > I propose we use 'residency fence' for execution
>> fences which enact
>> >>> > > memory-residency operations, e.g. faulting in a page
>> ultimately depending
>> >>> > > on GPU work retiring.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > And 'value fence' for the pure-userspace model
>> suggested by timeline
>> >>> > > semaphores, i.e. fences being (*addr == val) rather
>> than being able to look
>> >>> > > at ctx seqno.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Cheers,
>> >>> > > Daniel
>> >>> > > _______________________________________________
>> >>> > > mesa-dev mailing list
>> >>> > > mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org
>> <mailto:mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org>
>> >>> > >
>> https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev
>> <https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev>
>> >>> > >
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Daniel Vetter
>> >>> Software Engineer, Intel Corporation
>> >>> http://blog.ffwll.ch <http://blog.ffwll.ch>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> _______________________________________________
>> >> mesa-dev mailing list
>> >> mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org
>> <mailto:mesa-dev@lists.freedesktop.org>
>> >> https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev
>> <https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/mesa-dev>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Daniel Vetter
>> Software Engineer, Intel Corporation
>> http://blog.ffwll.ch <http://blog.ffwll.ch>
>>
>
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next prev parent reply other threads:[~2021-04-27 15:14 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 105+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2021-04-19 10:47 [RFC] Linux Graphics Next: Explicit fences everywhere and no BO fences - initial proposal Marek Olšák
2021-04-19 15:48 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-20 2:25 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-20 10:15 ` [Mesa-dev] " Christian König
2021-04-20 10:34 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 11:03 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-20 11:16 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 11:59 ` Christian König
2021-04-20 14:09 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 16:24 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-20 16:19 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-20 12:01 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 12:19 ` [Mesa-dev] " Christian König
2021-04-20 13:03 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 14:04 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 12:42 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 15:45 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-20 17:44 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 18:00 ` [Mesa-dev] " Christian König
2021-04-20 18:15 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 19:03 ` Bas Nieuwenhuizen
2021-04-20 19:18 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 18:53 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 19:14 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 19:29 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 20:32 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-26 20:59 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-27 8:02 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-27 11:49 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-27 12:06 ` Christian König
2021-04-27 12:11 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-27 12:15 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-27 12:27 ` Christian König
2021-04-27 12:46 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-27 12:50 ` Christian König
2021-04-27 13:26 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-27 15:13 ` Christian König [this message]
2021-04-27 17:31 ` Lucas Stach
2021-04-27 17:35 ` Simon Ser
2021-04-27 18:01 ` Alex Deucher
2021-04-27 18:27 ` Simon Ser
2021-04-28 10:01 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-28 10:05 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-28 10:31 ` Christian König
2021-04-28 12:21 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-28 12:26 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-28 13:11 ` Christian König
2021-04-28 13:34 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-28 13:37 ` Christian König
2021-04-28 14:34 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-28 14:45 ` Christian König
2021-04-29 11:07 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-28 20:39 ` Alex Deucher
2021-04-29 11:12 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-30 8:58 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-30 9:07 ` Christian König
2021-04-30 9:35 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-30 10:17 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-28 12:45 ` Simon Ser
2021-04-28 13:03 ` Alex Deucher
2021-04-27 19:41 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-27 21:58 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-28 4:01 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-28 5:19 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-27 18:38 ` Dave Airlie
2021-04-27 19:23 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-28 6:59 ` Christian König
2021-04-28 9:07 ` Michel Dänzer
2021-04-28 9:57 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-05-01 22:27 ` Marek Olšák
2021-05-03 14:42 ` Alex Deucher
2021-05-03 14:59 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-05-03 15:03 ` Christian König
2021-05-03 15:15 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-05-03 15:16 ` Bas Nieuwenhuizen
2021-05-03 15:23 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-05-03 20:36 ` Marek Olšák
2021-05-04 3:11 ` Marek Olšák
2021-05-04 7:01 ` Christian König
2021-05-04 7:32 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-05-04 8:09 ` Christian König
2021-05-04 8:27 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-05-04 9:14 ` Christian König
2021-05-04 9:47 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-05-04 10:53 ` Christian König
2021-05-04 11:13 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-05-04 12:48 ` Christian König
2021-05-04 16:44 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-05-04 17:16 ` Marek Olšák
2021-05-04 21:06 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-28 9:54 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-27 20:49 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-27 12:12 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 19:16 ` Jason Ekstrand
2021-04-20 19:27 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 14:53 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 14:58 ` [Mesa-dev] " Christian König
2021-04-20 15:07 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 15:16 ` Christian König
2021-04-20 15:49 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 16:25 ` Marek Olšák
2021-04-20 16:42 ` Jacob Lifshay
2021-04-20 18:03 ` Daniel Stone
2021-04-20 18:39 ` Daniel Vetter
2021-04-20 19:20 ` Marek Olšák
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