Re: [Mesa-dev] [RFC] Linux Graphics Next: Explicit fences everywhere and no BO fences - initial proposal

[Daniel Vetter <daniel@ffwll.ch>]

On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 02:21:54PM +0200, Daniel Vetter wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 28, 2021 at 12:31:09PM +0200, Christian König wrote:
> > Am 28.04.21 um 12:05 schrieb Daniel Vetter:
> > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 02:01:20PM -0400, Alex Deucher wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 1:35 PM Simon Ser <contact@emersion.fr> wrote:
> > > > > On Tuesday, April 27th, 2021 at 7:31 PM, Lucas Stach <l.stach@pengutronix.de> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > > Ok. So that would only make the following use cases broken for now:
> > > > > > > 
> > > > > > > - amd render -> external gpu
> > > > > > > - amd video encode -> network device
> > > > > > FWIW, "only" breaking amd render -> external gpu will make us pretty
> > > > > > unhappy
> > > > > I concur. I have quite a few users with a multi-GPU setup involving
> > > > > AMD hardware.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Note, if this brokenness can't be avoided, I'd prefer a to get a clear
> > > > > error, and not bad results on screen because nothing is synchronized
> > > > > anymore.
> > > > It's an upcoming requirement for windows[1], so you are likely to
> > > > start seeing this across all GPU vendors that support windows.  I
> > > > think the timing depends on how quickly the legacy hardware support
> > > > sticks around for each vendor.
> > > Yeah but hw scheduling doesn't mean the hw has to be constructed to not
> > > support isolating the ringbuffer at all.
> > > 
> > > E.g. even if the hw loses the bit to put the ringbuffer outside of the
> > > userspace gpu vm, if you have pagetables I'm seriously hoping you have r/o
> > > pte flags. Otherwise the entire "share address space with cpu side,
> > > seamlessly" thing is out of the window.
> > > 
> > > And with that r/o bit on the ringbuffer you can once more force submit
> > > through kernel space, and all the legacy dma_fence based stuff keeps
> > > working. And we don't have to invent some horrendous userspace fence based
> > > implicit sync mechanism in the kernel, but can instead do this transition
> > > properly with drm_syncobj timeline explicit sync and protocol reving.
> > > 
> > > At least I think you'd have to work extra hard to create a gpu which
> > > cannot possibly be intercepted by the kernel, even when it's designed to
> > > support userspace direct submit only.
> > > 
> > > Or are your hw engineers more creative here and we're screwed?
> > 
> > The upcomming hardware generation will have this hardware scheduler as a
> > must have, but there are certain ways we can still stick to the old
> > approach:
> > 
> > 1. The new hardware scheduler currently still supports kernel queues which
> > essentially is the same as the old hardware ring buffer.
> > 
> > 2. Mapping the top level ring buffer into the VM at least partially solves
> > the problem. This way you can't manipulate the ring buffer content, but the
> > location for the fence must still be writeable.
> 
> Yeah allowing userspace to lie about completion fences in this model is
> ok. Though I haven't thought through full consequences of that, but I
> think it's not any worse than userspace lying about which buffers/address
> it uses in the current model - we rely on hw vm ptes to catch that stuff.
> 
> Also it might be good to switch to a non-recoverable ctx model for these.
> That's already what we do in i915 (opt-in, but all current umd use that
> mode). So any hang/watchdog just kills the entire ctx and you don't have
> to worry about userspace doing something funny with it's ringbuffer.
> Simplifies everything.
> 
> Also ofc userspace fencing still disallowed, but since userspace would
> queu up all writes to its ringbuffer through the drm/scheduler, we'd
> handle dependencies through that still. Not great, but workable.
> 
> Thinking about this, not even mapping the ringbuffer r/o is required, it's
> just that we must queue things throug the kernel to resolve dependencies
> and everything without breaking dma_fence. If userspace lies, tdr will
> shoot it and the kernel stops running that context entirely.
> 
> So I think even if we have hw with 100% userspace submit model only we
> should be still fine. It's ofc silly, because instead of using userspace
> fences and gpu semaphores the hw scheduler understands we still take the
> detour through drm/scheduler, but at least it's not a break-the-world
> event.

Also no page fault support, userptr invalidates still stall until
end-of-batch instead of just preempting it, and all that too. But I mean
there needs to be some motivation to fix this and roll out explicit sync
:-)
-Daniel

> 
> Or do I miss something here?
> 
> > For now and the next hardware we are save to support the old submission
> > model, but the functionality of kernel queues will sooner or later go away
> > if it is only for Linux.
> > 
> > So we need to work on something which works in the long term and get us away
> > from this implicit sync.
> 
> Yeah I think we have pretty clear consensus on that goal, just no one yet
> volunteered to get going with the winsys/wayland work to plumb drm_syncobj
> through, and the kernel/mesa work to make that optionally a userspace
> fence underneath. And it's for a sure a lot of work.
> -Daniel
> -- 
> Daniel Vetter
> Software Engineer, Intel Corporation
> http://blog.ffwll.ch

-- 
Daniel Vetter
Software Engineer, Intel Corporation
http://blog.ffwll.ch
_______________________________________________
dri-devel mailing list
dri-devel@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/dri-devel