Re: [Linaro-mm-sig] [PATCH 1/2] dma-buf.rst: Document why indefinite fences are a bad idea

["Thomas Hellström (Intel)" <thomas_os@shipmail.org>]

On 2020-07-22 11:45, Daniel Vetter wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 10:05 AM Thomas Hellström (Intel)
> <thomas_os@shipmail.org> wrote:
>>
>> On 2020-07-22 09:11, Daniel Vetter wrote:
>>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:45 AM Thomas Hellström (Intel)
>>> <thomas_os@shipmail.org> wrote:
>>>> On 2020-07-22 00:45, Dave Airlie wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 at 18:47, Thomas Hellström (Intel)
>>>>> <thomas_os@shipmail.org> wrote:
>>>>>> On 7/21/20 9:45 AM, Christian König wrote:
>>>>>>> Am 21.07.20 um 09:41 schrieb Daniel Vetter:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 01:15:17PM +0200, Thomas Hellström (Intel)
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 7/9/20 2:33 PM, Daniel Vetter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Comes up every few years, gets somewhat tedious to discuss, let's
>>>>>>>>>> write this down once and for all.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What I'm not sure about is whether the text should be more explicit in
>>>>>>>>>> flat out mandating the amdkfd eviction fences for long running compute
>>>>>>>>>> workloads or workloads where userspace fencing is allowed.
>>>>>>>>> Although (in my humble opinion) it might be possible to completely
>>>>>>>>> untangle
>>>>>>>>> kernel-introduced fences for resource management and dma-fences used
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> completion- and dependency tracking and lift a lot of restrictions
>>>>>>>>> for the
>>>>>>>>> dma-fences, including prohibiting infinite ones, I think this makes
>>>>>>>>> sense
>>>>>>>>> describing the current state.
>>>>>>>> Yeah I think a future patch needs to type up how we want to make that
>>>>>>>> happen (for some cross driver consistency) and what needs to be
>>>>>>>> considered. Some of the necessary parts are already there (with like the
>>>>>>>> preemption fences amdkfd has as an example), but I think some clear docs
>>>>>>>> on what's required from both hw, drivers and userspace would be really
>>>>>>>> good.
>>>>>>> I'm currently writing that up, but probably still need a few days for
>>>>>>> this.
>>>>>> Great! I put down some (very) initial thoughts a couple of weeks ago
>>>>>> building on eviction fences for various hardware complexity levels here:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/thomash/docs/-/blob/master/Untangling%20dma-fence%20and%20memory%20allocation.odt
>>>>> We are seeing HW that has recoverable GPU page faults but only for
>>>>> compute tasks, and scheduler without semaphores hw for graphics.
>>>>>
>>>>> So a single driver may have to expose both models to userspace and
>>>>> also introduces the problem of how to interoperate between the two
>>>>> models on one card.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave.
>>>> Hmm, yes to begin with it's important to note that this is not a
>>>> replacement for new programming models or APIs, This is something that
>>>> takes place internally in drivers to mitigate many of the restrictions
>>>> that are currently imposed on dma-fence and documented in this and
>>>> previous series. It's basically the driver-private narrow completions
>>>> Jason suggested in the lockdep patches discussions implemented the same
>>>> way as eviction-fences.
>>>>
>>>> The memory fence API would be local to helpers and middle-layers like
>>>> TTM, and the corresponding drivers.  The only cross-driver-like
>>>> visibility would be that the dma-buf move_notify() callback would not be
>>>> allowed to wait on dma-fences or something that depends on a dma-fence.
>>> Because we can't preempt (on some engines at least) we already have
>>> the requirement that cross driver buffer management can get stuck on a
>>> dma-fence. Not even taking into account the horrors we do with
>>> userptr, which are cross driver no matter what. Limiting move_notify
>>> to memory fences only doesn't work, since the pte clearing might need
>>> to wait for a dma_fence first. Hence this becomes a full end-of-batch
>>> fence, not just a limited kernel-internal memory fence.
>> For non-preemptible hardware the memory fence typically *is* the
>> end-of-batch fence. (Unless, as documented, there is a scheduler
>> consuming sync-file dependencies in which case the memory fence wait
>> needs to be able to break out of that). The key thing is not that we can
>> break out of execution, but that we can break out of dependencies, since
>> when we're executing all dependecies (modulo semaphores) are already
>> fulfilled. That's what's eliminating the deadlocks.
>>
>>> That's kinda why I think only reasonable option is to toss in the
>>> towel and declare dma-fence to be the memory fence (and suck up all
>>> the consequences of that decision as uapi, which is kinda where we
>>> are), and construct something new&entirely free-wheeling for userspace
>>> fencing. But only for engines that allow enough preempt/gpu page
>>> faulting to make that possible. Free wheeling userspace fences/gpu
>>> semaphores or whatever you want to call them (on windows I think it's
>>> monitored fence) only work if you can preempt to decouple the memory
>>> fences from your gpu command execution.
>>>
>>> There's the in-between step of just decoupling the batchbuffer
>>> submission prep for hw without any preempt (but a scheduler), but that
>>> seems kinda pointless. Modern execbuf should be O(1) fastpath, with
>>> all the allocation/mapping work pulled out ahead. vk exposes that
>>> model directly to clients, GL drivers could use it internally too, so
>>> I see zero value in spending lots of time engineering very tricky
>>> kernel code just for old userspace. Much more reasonable to do that in
>>> userspace, where we have real debuggers and no panics about security
>>> bugs (or well, a lot less, webgl is still a thing, but at least
>>> browsers realized you need to container that completely).
>> Sure, it's definitely a big chunk of work. I think the big win would be
>> allowing memory allocation in dma-fence critical sections. But I
>> completely buy the above argument. I just wanted to point out that many
>> of the dma-fence restrictions are IMHO fixable, should we need to do
>> that for whatever reason.
> I'm still not sure that's possible, without preemption at least. We
> have 4 edges:
> - Kernel has internal depencies among memory fences. We want that to
> allow (mild) amounts of overcommit, since that simplifies live so
> much.
> - Memory fences can block gpu ctx execution (by nature of the memory
> simply not being there yet due to our overcommit)
> - gpu ctx have (if we allow this) userspace controlled semaphore
> dependencies. Of course userspace is expected to not create deadlocks,
> but that's only assuming the kernel doesn't inject additional
> dependencies. Compute folks really want that.
> - gpu ctx can hold up memory allocations if all we have is
> end-of-batch fences. And end-of-batch fences are all we have without
> preempt, plus if we want backwards compat with the entire current
> winsys/compositor ecosystem we need them, which allows us to inject
> stuff dependent upon them pretty much anywhere.
>
> Fundamentally that's not fixable without throwing one of the edges
> (and the corresponding feature that enables) out, since no entity has
> full visibility into what's going on. E.g. forcing userspace to tell
> the kernel about all semaphores just brings up back to the
> drm_timeline_syncobj design we have merged right now. And that's imo
> no better.

Indeed, HW waiting for semaphores without being able to preempt that 
wait is a no-go. The doc (perhaps naively) assumes nobody is doing that.

>
> That's kinda why I'm not seeing much benefits in a half-way state:
> Tons of work, and still not what userspace wants. And for the full
> deal that userspace wants we might as well not change anything with
> dma-fences. For that we need a) ctx preempt and b) new entirely
> decoupled fences that never feed back into a memory fences and c) are
> controlled entirely by userspace. And c) is the really important thing
> people want us to provide.
>
> And once we're ok with dma_fence == memory fences, then enforcing the
> strict and painful memory allocation limitations is actually what we
> want.

Let's hope you're right. My fear is that that might be pretty painful as 
well.

> Cheers, Daniel

/Thomas


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