Re: [Linaro-mm-sig] [PATCH 1/2] dma-buf.rst: Document why indefinite fences are a bad idea

[Daniel Vetter <daniel.vetter@ffwll.ch>]

On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 12:31 PM Thomas Hellström (Intel)
<thomas_os@shipmail.org> wrote:
>
>
> On 2020-07-22 11:45, Daniel Vetter wrote:
> > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 10:05 AM Thomas Hellström (Intel)
> > <thomas_os@shipmail.org> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 2020-07-22 09:11, Daniel Vetter wrote:
> >>> On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 8:45 AM Thomas Hellström (Intel)
> >>> <thomas_os@shipmail.org> wrote:
> >>>> On 2020-07-22 00:45, Dave Airlie wrote:
> >>>>> On Tue, 21 Jul 2020 at 18:47, Thomas Hellström (Intel)
> >>>>> <thomas_os@shipmail.org> wrote:
> >>>>>> On 7/21/20 9:45 AM, Christian König wrote:
> >>>>>>> Am 21.07.20 um 09:41 schrieb Daniel Vetter:
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 20, 2020 at 01:15:17PM +0200, Thomas Hellström (Intel)
> >>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Hi,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 7/9/20 2:33 PM, Daniel Vetter wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> Comes up every few years, gets somewhat tedious to discuss, let's
> >>>>>>>>>> write this down once and for all.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> What I'm not sure about is whether the text should be more explicit in
> >>>>>>>>>> flat out mandating the amdkfd eviction fences for long running compute
> >>>>>>>>>> workloads or workloads where userspace fencing is allowed.
> >>>>>>>>> Although (in my humble opinion) it might be possible to completely
> >>>>>>>>> untangle
> >>>>>>>>> kernel-introduced fences for resource management and dma-fences used
> >>>>>>>>> for
> >>>>>>>>> completion- and dependency tracking and lift a lot of restrictions
> >>>>>>>>> for the
> >>>>>>>>> dma-fences, including prohibiting infinite ones, I think this makes
> >>>>>>>>> sense
> >>>>>>>>> describing the current state.
> >>>>>>>> Yeah I think a future patch needs to type up how we want to make that
> >>>>>>>> happen (for some cross driver consistency) and what needs to be
> >>>>>>>> considered. Some of the necessary parts are already there (with like the
> >>>>>>>> preemption fences amdkfd has as an example), but I think some clear docs
> >>>>>>>> on what's required from both hw, drivers and userspace would be really
> >>>>>>>> good.
> >>>>>>> I'm currently writing that up, but probably still need a few days for
> >>>>>>> this.
> >>>>>> Great! I put down some (very) initial thoughts a couple of weeks ago
> >>>>>> building on eviction fences for various hardware complexity levels here:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/thomash/docs/-/blob/master/Untangling%20dma-fence%20and%20memory%20allocation.odt
> >>>>> We are seeing HW that has recoverable GPU page faults but only for
> >>>>> compute tasks, and scheduler without semaphores hw for graphics.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So a single driver may have to expose both models to userspace and
> >>>>> also introduces the problem of how to interoperate between the two
> >>>>> models on one card.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dave.
> >>>> Hmm, yes to begin with it's important to note that this is not a
> >>>> replacement for new programming models or APIs, This is something that
> >>>> takes place internally in drivers to mitigate many of the restrictions
> >>>> that are currently imposed on dma-fence and documented in this and
> >>>> previous series. It's basically the driver-private narrow completions
> >>>> Jason suggested in the lockdep patches discussions implemented the same
> >>>> way as eviction-fences.
> >>>>
> >>>> The memory fence API would be local to helpers and middle-layers like
> >>>> TTM, and the corresponding drivers.  The only cross-driver-like
> >>>> visibility would be that the dma-buf move_notify() callback would not be
> >>>> allowed to wait on dma-fences or something that depends on a dma-fence.
> >>> Because we can't preempt (on some engines at least) we already have
> >>> the requirement that cross driver buffer management can get stuck on a
> >>> dma-fence. Not even taking into account the horrors we do with
> >>> userptr, which are cross driver no matter what. Limiting move_notify
> >>> to memory fences only doesn't work, since the pte clearing might need
> >>> to wait for a dma_fence first. Hence this becomes a full end-of-batch
> >>> fence, not just a limited kernel-internal memory fence.
> >> For non-preemptible hardware the memory fence typically *is* the
> >> end-of-batch fence. (Unless, as documented, there is a scheduler
> >> consuming sync-file dependencies in which case the memory fence wait
> >> needs to be able to break out of that). The key thing is not that we can
> >> break out of execution, but that we can break out of dependencies, since
> >> when we're executing all dependecies (modulo semaphores) are already
> >> fulfilled. That's what's eliminating the deadlocks.
> >>
> >>> That's kinda why I think only reasonable option is to toss in the
> >>> towel and declare dma-fence to be the memory fence (and suck up all
> >>> the consequences of that decision as uapi, which is kinda where we
> >>> are), and construct something new&entirely free-wheeling for userspace
> >>> fencing. But only for engines that allow enough preempt/gpu page
> >>> faulting to make that possible. Free wheeling userspace fences/gpu
> >>> semaphores or whatever you want to call them (on windows I think it's
> >>> monitored fence) only work if you can preempt to decouple the memory
> >>> fences from your gpu command execution.
> >>>
> >>> There's the in-between step of just decoupling the batchbuffer
> >>> submission prep for hw without any preempt (but a scheduler), but that
> >>> seems kinda pointless. Modern execbuf should be O(1) fastpath, with
> >>> all the allocation/mapping work pulled out ahead. vk exposes that
> >>> model directly to clients, GL drivers could use it internally too, so
> >>> I see zero value in spending lots of time engineering very tricky
> >>> kernel code just for old userspace. Much more reasonable to do that in
> >>> userspace, where we have real debuggers and no panics about security
> >>> bugs (or well, a lot less, webgl is still a thing, but at least
> >>> browsers realized you need to container that completely).
> >> Sure, it's definitely a big chunk of work. I think the big win would be
> >> allowing memory allocation in dma-fence critical sections. But I
> >> completely buy the above argument. I just wanted to point out that many
> >> of the dma-fence restrictions are IMHO fixable, should we need to do
> >> that for whatever reason.
> > I'm still not sure that's possible, without preemption at least. We
> > have 4 edges:
> > - Kernel has internal depencies among memory fences. We want that to
> > allow (mild) amounts of overcommit, since that simplifies live so
> > much.
> > - Memory fences can block gpu ctx execution (by nature of the memory
> > simply not being there yet due to our overcommit)
> > - gpu ctx have (if we allow this) userspace controlled semaphore
> > dependencies. Of course userspace is expected to not create deadlocks,
> > but that's only assuming the kernel doesn't inject additional
> > dependencies. Compute folks really want that.
> > - gpu ctx can hold up memory allocations if all we have is
> > end-of-batch fences. And end-of-batch fences are all we have without
> > preempt, plus if we want backwards compat with the entire current
> > winsys/compositor ecosystem we need them, which allows us to inject
> > stuff dependent upon them pretty much anywhere.
> >
> > Fundamentally that's not fixable without throwing one of the edges
> > (and the corresponding feature that enables) out, since no entity has
> > full visibility into what's going on. E.g. forcing userspace to tell
> > the kernel about all semaphores just brings up back to the
> > drm_timeline_syncobj design we have merged right now. And that's imo
> > no better.
>
> Indeed, HW waiting for semaphores without being able to preempt that
> wait is a no-go. The doc (perhaps naively) assumes nobody is doing that.

preempt is a necessary but not sufficient condition, you also must not
have end-of-batch memory fences. And i915 has semaphore support and
end-of-batch memory fences, e.g. one piece is:

commit c4e8ba7390346a77ffe33ec3f210bc62e0b6c8c6
Author: Chris Wilson <chris@chris-wilson.co.uk>
Date:   Tue Apr 7 14:08:11 2020 +0100

    drm/i915/gt: Yield the timeslice if caught waiting on a user semaphore

Sure it preempts, but that's not enough.

> > That's kinda why I'm not seeing much benefits in a half-way state:
> > Tons of work, and still not what userspace wants. And for the full
> > deal that userspace wants we might as well not change anything with
> > dma-fences. For that we need a) ctx preempt and b) new entirely
> > decoupled fences that never feed back into a memory fences and c) are
> > controlled entirely by userspace. And c) is the really important thing
> > people want us to provide.
> >
> > And once we're ok with dma_fence == memory fences, then enforcing the
> > strict and painful memory allocation limitations is actually what we
> > want.
>
> Let's hope you're right. My fear is that that might be pretty painful as
> well.

Oh it's very painful too:
- We need a separate uapi flavour for gpu ctx with preempt instead of
end-of-batch dma-fence.
- Which needs to be implemented without breaking stuff badly - e.g. we
need to make sure we don't probe-wait on fences unnecessarily since
that forces random unwanted preempts.
- If we want this with winsys integration we need full userspace
revisions since all the dma_fence based sync sharing is out (implicit
sync on dma-buf, sync_file, drm_syncobj are all defunct since we can
only go the other way round).

Utter pain, but I think it's better since it can be done
driver-by-driver, and even userspace usecase by usecase. Which means
we can experiment in areas where the 10+ years of uapi guarantee isn't
so painful, learn, until we do the big jump of new
zero-interaction-with-memory-management fences become baked in forever
into compositor/winsys/modeset protocols. With the other approach of
splitting dma-fence we need to do all the splitting first, make sure
we get it right, and only then can we enable the use-case for real.

That's just not going to happen, at least not in upstream across all
drivers. Within a single driver in some vendor tree hacking stuff up
is totally fine ofc.
-Daniel
-- 
Daniel Vetter
Software Engineer, Intel Corporation
http://blog.ffwll.ch
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