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From: Pete Zaitcev <zaitcev@redhat.com>
To: Hildo.Biersma@morganstanley.com
Cc: Pete Zaitcev <zaitcev@redhat.com>, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: close return value
Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 19:55:01 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <20020718195501.A21027@devserv.devel.redhat.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <15671.8335.526673.92376@axolotl.ms.com>; from Hildo.Biersma@morganstanley.com on Thu, Jul 18, 2002 at 04:09:51PM -0400

> Date: Thu, 18 Jul 2002 16:09:51 -0400 (EDT)
> From: Hildo.Biersma@morganstanley.com

> Pete> The problem with errors from close() is that NOTHING SMART can be
> Pete> done by the application when it receives it. And application can:
> 
> Pete>  a) print a message "Your data are lost, have a nice day\n".
> Pete>  b) loop retrying close() until it works.
> Pete>  c) do (a) then (b).
> 
> I must disagree with you.  We run the Andrew File System (AFS), which
> has client-side caching with write-on-close semantics.  If an error
> occurs goes wrong at close() time, a well-written application can
> actually do something useful - such as sending an alert, or letting
> the user know the action failed.

The above is an example of an application covering up for
a filesystem that breaks the general expactions for the
operating environment. Remember your precursor with a broken
driver who received his beating a couple of months ago.
He also had an appliction which processed his errors from
close just fine. A workaround can be done in every specific
instance, but it does not make this practice any smarter.

What AFS designers should have done if they had a brain larger
than a pea was:

 1. Make close to block indefinitely, retrying writes.
    Allow overlapping writes, let clients to sort it out.
 2. Provide an ioctl to flush writes before close() or
    make fsync() work right. Your "smart" applications have had
    to use that, so that no ambiguity existed between tearing down
    the descriptor and writing out the data.

This way, naive applications such as cat and cc would
continue to work. There is no reason to penalize them just
because some application _could_ possibly post idiotic alerts
(Abort, Retry, Fail).

-- Pete

  reply	other threads:[~2002-07-18 23:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 82+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20020712162306$aa7d@traf.lcs.mit.edu>
     [not found] ` <mit.lcs.mail.linux-kernel/20020712162306$aa7d@traf.lcs.mit.edu>
2002-07-15 15:22   ` [ANNOUNCE] Ext3 vs Reiserfs benchmarks Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-15 17:31     ` Chris Mason
2002-07-15 18:33     ` Matthias Andree
     [not found]     ` <20020715173337$acad@traf.lcs.mit.edu>
     [not found]       ` <mit.lcs.mail.linux-kernel/20020715173337$acad@traf.lcs.mit.edu>
2002-07-15 19:13         ` Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-15 20:55           ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-15 21:23             ` Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-15 21:38               ` Thunder from the hill
2002-07-16 12:31                 ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-16 15:53                   ` Thunder from the hill
2002-07-16 19:26                     ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-16 19:38                       ` Thunder from the hill
2002-07-16 23:22                         ` close return value (was Re: [ANNOUNCE] Ext3 vs Reiserfs benchmarks) Zack Weinberg
2002-07-17  1:03                           ` Alan Cox
2002-07-16 23:52                             ` close return value David S. Miller
2002-07-17  1:35                               ` Alan Cox
2002-07-17  0:20                                 ` David S. Miller
2002-07-17  1:05                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2002-07-17  1:05                                     ` David S. Miller
2002-07-17  1:23                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2002-07-17 11:51                                         ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-17 17:23                                           ` Andries Brouwer
2002-07-20  8:00                                         ` Florian Weimer
2002-07-20 16:45                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2002-07-26  0:06                                             ` EFAULT vs. SIGSEGV [was Re: close return value] Pavel Machek
2002-07-26 14:01                                               ` (no subject) Alexis Deruelle
     [not found]                                   ` <mailman.1026868201.10433.linux-kernel2news@redhat.com>
2002-07-18  0:01                                     ` close return value Pete Zaitcev
2002-07-18  0:10                                       ` Thunder from the hill
     [not found]                                       ` <mit.lcs.mail.linux-kernel/200207180001.g6I015f02681@devserv.devel.redhat.com>
2002-07-18 14:42                                         ` Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-18 15:13                                           ` Richard B. Johnson
2002-07-18 15:32                                             ` Sandy Harris
2002-07-18 23:47                                           ` Albert D. Cahalan
2002-07-19 16:12                                             ` Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-19 16:24                                               ` Joseph Malicki
2002-07-19 18:48                                                 ` Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-19 19:25                                                   ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2002-07-19 19:30                                                     ` Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo
2002-07-19 19:45                                                       ` Joseph Malicki
2002-07-19 19:55                                                         ` Arnaldo Carvalho de Melo
2002-07-20 18:25                                                         ` Bernd Eckenfels
2002-07-20 23:06                                                         ` Sandy Harris
2002-07-20 14:42                                                 ` Andries Brouwer
2002-07-18 20:09                                       ` Hildo.Biersma
2002-07-18 23:55                                         ` Pete Zaitcev [this message]
2002-07-19 11:31                                           ` Hildo.Biersma
2002-07-19 16:16                                             ` Pete Zaitcev
2002-07-23 22:19                                           ` Bill Davidsen
2002-07-17  0:10                             ` close return value (was Re: [ANNOUNCE] Ext3 vs Reiserfs benchmarks) Zack Weinberg
2002-07-17  1:45                               ` Alan Cox
2002-07-17 18:24                                 ` Zack Weinberg
2002-07-22 16:42                                 ` Rogier Wolff
2002-07-17  8:00                               ` Lars Marowsky-Bree
2002-07-17 15:49                                 ` Thunder from the hill
2002-07-17  2:22                             ` Elladan
2002-07-17  2:54                               ` Thunder from the hill
2002-07-17  3:00                                 ` Elladan
2002-07-17  3:10                                   ` Thunder from the hill
2002-07-17  3:31                                     ` Elladan
2002-07-17  4:17                               ` Stevie O
2002-07-17  4:38                                 ` Elladan
2002-07-17 14:39                                   ` Andreas Schwab
2002-07-17 16:49                                     ` Elladan
2002-07-17 17:43                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2002-07-17 22:07                                         ` Elladan
2002-07-18  9:48                                         ` Ketil Froyn
2002-07-17 17:17                                   ` Andries Brouwer
2002-07-17 17:51                                     ` Richard Gooch
2002-07-17  7:34                               ` close return value (was Re: [ANNOUNCE] Ext3 vs Reiserfs benchmarks Kai Henningsen
2002-07-15 21:59               ` Ketil Froyn
2002-07-15 23:08                 ` Matti Aarnio
2002-07-16 12:33                   ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-15 22:55             ` Alan Cox
2002-07-15 21:58               ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-15 21:14           ` Chris Mason
2002-07-15 21:31             ` Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-15 22:12               ` Richard A Nelson
2002-07-16  1:02               ` Lawrence Greenfield
     [not found]                 ` <mit.lcs.mail.linux-kernel/200207160102.g6G12BiH022986@lin2.andrew.cmu.edu>
2002-07-16  1:43                   ` Patrick J. LoPresti
2002-07-16  1:56                     ` Thunder from the hill
2002-07-16 12:47                     ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-16 21:09                     ` James Antill
2002-07-16 12:35             ` Matthias Andree
2002-07-16  7:07     ` Dax Kelson

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