From: Alan Stern <stern@rowland.harvard.edu>
To: "Paul E. McKenney" <paulmck@kernel.org>
Cc: Andrea Parri <parri.andrea@gmail.com>,
Jonas Oberhauser <jonas.oberhauser@huawei.com>,
Peter Zijlstra <peterz@infradead.org>, will <will@kernel.org>,
"boqun.feng" <boqun.feng@gmail.com>, npiggin <npiggin@gmail.com>,
dhowells <dhowells@redhat.com>, "j.alglave" <j.alglave@ucl.ac.uk>,
"luc.maranget" <luc.maranget@inria.fr>, akiyks <akiyks@gmail.com>,
dlustig <dlustig@nvidia.com>, joel <joel@joelfernandes.org>,
urezki <urezki@gmail.com>,
quic_neeraju <quic_neeraju@quicinc.com>,
frederic <frederic@kernel.org>,
Kernel development list <linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org>
Subject: Re: Internal vs. external barriers (was: Re: Interesting LKMM litmus test)
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2023 11:50:24 -0500 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <Y8gjUKoHxqR9+7Hx@rowland.harvard.edu> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20230118035041.GQ2948950@paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1>
On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 07:50:41PM -0800, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 03:15:06PM -0500, Alan Stern wrote:
> > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 09:43:08AM -0800, Paul E. McKenney wrote:
> > > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:56:34AM -0500, Alan Stern wrote:
> > > > Isn't it true that the current code will flag srcu-bad-nesting if a
> > > > litmus test has non-nested overlapping SRCU read-side critical sections?
> > >
> > > Now that you mention it, it does indeed, flagging srcu-bad-nesting.
> > >
> > > Just to see if I understand, different-values yields true if the set
> > > contains multiple elements with the same value mapping to different
> > > values. Or, to put it another way, if the relation does not correspond
> > > to a function.
> >
> > As I understand it, given a relation r (i.e., a set of pairs of events),
> > different-values(r) returns the sub-relation consisting of those pairs
> > in r for which the value associated with the first event of the pair is
> > different from the value associated with the second event of the pair.
>
> OK, so different-values(r) is different than (r \ id) because the
> former operates on values and the latter on events?
No. Both of these things are relations, not values or events.
Suppose you had:
A: WRITE_ONCE(x, 1);
B: WRITE_ONCE(y, 1);
C: WRITE_ONCE(z, 2);
Then the po relation would consist of the pairs (A,B), (A,C), and (B,C).
The different-values(po) relation would include only (A,C) and (B,C).
It would not include (A,B) because the two events in that pair have the
same value: 1.
And finally, (po \ id) would be the same as po, because the id relation
consists of the pairs (A,A), (B,B), and (C,C) -- and none of those are
in po to begin with, so removing them from po doesn't do anything.
> > Right now the behavior is kind of strange. The following simple litmus
> > test:
> >
> > C test
> > {}
> > P0(int *x)
> > {
> > int r1;
> > r1 = srcu_read_lock(x);
> > srcu_read_unlock(x, r1);
> > }
> > exists (~0:r1=0)
> >
> > produces the following output from herd7:
> >
> > Test test Allowed
> > States 1
> > 0:r1=906;
> > Ok
> > Witnesses
> > Positive: 1 Negative: 0
> > Condition exists (not (0:r1=0))
> > Observation test Always 1 0
> > Time test 0.01
> > Hash=2f42c87ae9c1d267f4e80c66f646b9bb
> >
> > Don't ask me where that 906 value comes from or why it is't 0. Also,
> > herd7's graphical output shows there is no data dependency from the lock
> > to the unlock, but we need to have one.
>
> Is it still the case that any herd7 value greater than 127 is special?
I have no idea.
> > > Given an Srcu-down and an Srcu-up:
> > >
> > > let srcu-rscs = ( return_value(Srcu-lock) ; (dep | rfi)* ;
> > > parameter(Srcu-unlock, 2) ) |
> > > ( return_value(Srcu-down) ; (dep | rf)* ;
> > > parameter(Srcu-up, 2) )
> > >
> > > Seem reasonable, or am I missing yet something else?
> >
> > Not at all reasonable.
> >
> > For one thing, consider this question: Which statements lie inside a
> > read-side critical section?
>
> Here srcu_down_read() and srcu_up_read() are to srcu_read_lock() and
> srcu_read_unlock() as down_read() and up_read() are to mutex_lock()
> and mutex_unlock(). Not that this should be all that much comfort
> given that I have no idea how one would go about modeling down_read()
> and up_read() in LKMM.
It might make sense to work on that first, before trying to do
srcu_down_read() and srcu_up_read().
> > With srcu_read_lock() and a matching srcu_read_unlock(), the answer is
> > clear: All statements po-between the two. With srcu_down_read() and
> > srcu_up_read(), the answer is cloudy in the extreme.
>
> And I agree that it must be clearly specified, and my that previous try
> was completely lacking. Here is a second attempt:
>
> let srcu-rscs = (([Srcu-lock] ; data ; [Srcu-unlock]) & loc) |
> (([Srcu-down] ; (data | rf)* ; [Srcu-up]) & loc)
>
> (And I see your proposal and will try it.)
>
> > Also, bear in mind that the Fundamental Law of RCU is formulated in
> > terms of stores propagating to a critical section's CPU. What are we to
> > make of this when a single critical section can belong to more than one
> > CPU?
>
> One way of answering this question is by analogy with down() and up()
> when used as a cross-task mutex. Another is by mechanically applying
> some of current LKMM. Let's start with this second option.
>
> LKMM works mostly with critical sections, but we also discussed ordering
> based on the set of events po-after an srcu_read_lock() on the one hand
> and the set of events po-before an srcu_read_unlock() on the other.
> Starting here, the critical section is the intersection of these two sets.
>
> In the case of srcu_down_read() and srcu_up_read(), as you say, whatever
> might be a critical section must span processes. So what if instead of
> po, we used (say) xbstar? Then given a set of A such that ([Srcu-down ;
> xbstar ; A) and B such that (B ; xbstar ; [Srcu-up]), then the critical
> section is the intersection of A and B.
>
> One objection to this approach is that a bunch of unrelated events could
> end up being defined as part of the critical section. Except that this
> happens already anyway in real critical sections in the Linux kernel.
>
> So what about down() and up() when used as cross-task mutexes?
> These often do have conceptual critical sections that protect some
> combination of resource, but these critical sections might span tasks
> and/or workqueue handlers. And any reasonable definition of these
> critical sections would be just as likely to pull in unrelated accesses as
> the above intersection approach for srcu_down_read() and srcu_up_read().
>
> But I am just now making all this up, so thoughts?
Maybe we don't really need to talk about read-side critical sections at
all. Once again, here's what explanation.txt currently says:
For any critical section C and any grace period G, at least
one of the following statements must hold:
(1) C ends before G does, and in addition, every store that
propagates to C's CPU before the end of C must propagate to
every CPU before G ends.
(2) G starts before C does, and in addition, every store that
propagates to G's CPU before the start of G must propagate
to every CPU before C starts.
Suppose we change this to:
For any RCU lock operation L and matching unlock operation U,
and any matching grace period G, at least one of the following
statements must hold:
(1) U executes before G ends, and in addition, every store that
propagates to U's CPU before U executes must propagate to
every CPU before G ends.
(2) G starts before L executes, and in addition, every store that
propagates to G's CPU before the start of G must propagate
to every CPU before L executes.
(For SRCU, G matches L and U if it operates on the same srcu structure.)
This can be applied sensibly to regular RCU, regular SRCU, and the
up/down version of SRCU. Maybe it's what we want.
> > Indeed, given:
> >
> > P0(int *x) {
> > srcu_down_read(x);
> > }
> >
> > P1(int *x) {
> > srcu_up_read(x);
> > }
> >
> > what are we to make of executions in which P1 executes before P0?
>
> Indeed, there had better be something else forbidding such executions, or
> this is an invalid use of srcu_down_read() and srcu_up_read(). This might
> become more clear if the example is expanded to include the index returned
> from srcu_down_read() that is to be passed to srcu_up_read():
>
> P0(int *x, int *i) {
> WRITE_ONCE(i, srcu_down_read(x));
> }
>
> P1(int *x, int *i) {
> srcu_up_read(x, READ_ONCE(i));
> }
Hmmm. What happens if you write:
r1 = srcu_down_read(x);
r2 = srcu_down_read(x);
srcu_up_read(x, r1);
srcu_up_read(x, r2);
? I can't even tell what that would be _intended_ to do.
In fact, it seems likely that to make this work, you have to store at
least two values in *x: the value of the up/down counter, and the value
returned by srcu_down_read or stored by srcu_up_read. That means you
can't describe what's happening without using a structure, and herd7
doesn't support structures.
> Which it looks like you in fact to have in your patch, so time for me
> to go try that out.
>
> Thanx, Paul
Alan
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-01-18 16:50 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 161+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
[not found] <20220921173109.GA1214281@paulmck-ThinkPad-P17-Gen-1>
[not found] ` <YytfFiMT2Xsdwowf@rowland.harvard.edu>
[not found] ` <YywXuzZ/922LHfjI@hirez.programming.kicks-ass.net>
[not found] ` <114ECED5-FED1-4361-94F7-8D9BC02449B7>
[not found] ` <YzSAnclenTz7KQyt@rowland.harvard.edu>
[not found] ` <f763bd5ff835458d8750b61da47fe316@huawei.com>
2023-01-03 18:56 ` Internal vs. external barriers (was: Re: Interesting LKMM litmus test) Alan Stern
2023-01-04 15:37 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-04 20:58 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <ee186bc17a5e48298a5373f688496dce@huawei.com>
2023-01-05 17:32 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <bea712c82e6346f8973399a5711ff78a@huawei.com>
2023-01-11 15:06 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <768ffe7edc7f4ddfacd5b0a8e844ed84@huawei.com>
2023-01-11 17:01 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <07579baee4b84532a76ea8b0b33052bb@huawei.com>
2023-01-12 21:57 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-13 16:38 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-13 19:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <06a8aef7eb8d46bca34521a80880dae3@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 17:42 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <e51c82a113484b6bb62354a49376f248@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 16:42 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-17 17:48 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-17 21:19 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 11:25 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 2:28 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 11:22 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 16:41 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 18:43 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-23 16:16 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 19:58 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-23 20:06 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 20:41 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-24 13:21 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 15:54 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 17:22 ` Alan Stern
[not found] ` <4c1abc7733794519ad7c5153ae8b58f9@huawei.com>
2023-01-13 16:28 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-13 20:07 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-13 20:32 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 17:40 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-14 17:48 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <136d019d8c8049f6b737627df830e66f@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 17:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 18:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 19:58 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-15 5:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 20:19 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-15 5:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-15 16:23 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-15 18:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-15 20:46 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-16 4:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-16 18:11 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-16 19:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-16 19:20 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-16 22:13 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 11:46 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-17 15:14 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 15:56 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-17 17:43 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 18:27 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-17 18:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-17 20:20 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-17 20:15 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 3:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 16:50 ` Alan Stern [this message]
2023-01-18 19:42 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-18 20:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 20:30 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-18 21:12 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 21:24 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 0:11 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 13:39 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 18:41 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 19:51 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 21:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 22:04 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 23:03 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 9:43 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 15:39 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 20:46 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 21:37 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 22:36 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 23:19 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 0:03 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-21 0:34 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 3:55 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 9:20 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 12:34 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 12:51 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 15:32 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 20:56 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 21:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 16:14 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 17:30 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 18:15 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 18:59 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 10:13 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 15:47 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 22:21 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-20 16:18 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 21:41 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-21 4:38 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 17:36 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-21 18:40 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 19:56 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-21 20:10 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-21 21:03 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-21 23:49 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-23 11:48 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 15:55 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-23 19:40 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-23 20:34 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 20:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 20:54 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 21:05 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-19 0:02 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 2:19 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-19 11:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 16:01 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 17:58 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 18:37 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 19:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-20 20:36 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-20 21:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-22 20:32 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-23 20:16 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 2:18 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-24 4:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 11:09 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-24 14:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 15:11 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 16:22 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 16:39 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 17:26 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 19:30 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-24 22:15 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-24 22:35 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-24 22:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 1:54 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 2:20 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 13:10 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-25 15:05 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 15:34 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 17:18 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 17:42 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-25 19:08 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 19:46 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 20:36 ` Andrea Parri
2023-01-25 21:10 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-25 21:23 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 20:46 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-25 21:38 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-25 23:33 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-26 1:45 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-26 1:53 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-26 12:17 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-26 18:48 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-27 15:03 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-27 16:50 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-27 16:54 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 19:57 ` Jonas Oberhauser
2023-01-18 21:06 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 2:15 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 5:17 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-18 16:03 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 16:59 ` Boqun Feng
2023-01-18 17:08 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-18 17:41 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-19 19:07 ` Paul E. McKenney
2023-01-14 16:55 ` Alan Stern
2023-01-14 17:35 ` Paul E. McKenney
[not found] ` <17078dd97cb6480f9c51e27058af3197@huawei.com>
2023-01-14 17:27 ` Alan Stern
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